2-Stroke or 4-Stroke

Hi All!

This is my first time in & like Corey am also an experienced rider getting back into it after several years layoff. Hoping to gain some feedback from you folks who have been riding these bikes to help me in my choice of bike to get back out in the dirt.

I've begun looking at several brands Husaberg, KTM & TM 4-strokes as well as KTM, Gas Gas & TM 300cc 2-strokes.

Although I have not ridden any recent models, I have a good understanding with regard to how these 2-strokes will work. Reliable bikes, versatile engines with great bottom end and more than adequate power.

I have ridden 4-strokes in the past and found that I could do very well on one "in the right conditions" but eventually stopped riding 4-strokes very frustrated due to impossible hot starting and mega excessive weight.

It would seem that technological advances have taken care of starting grief with the electric button and....at least with the Berg....the weight is just about the same as the 2-stroke machines I mentioned above.

For my kind of riding though, I am wondering about the very, very low speed manners of the current 4-stroke engines. Are they still susceptible to off-idle cough & stall? How smooth does the power come on at the very bottom? Overall, how reliable are they or how much extra maintenance is needed over what would be required to keep the 2-strokes in top shape.

My riding will be focused to hard enduro style terrain in the Alberta, Canada mountains. Lots of rock (some large), miles of super tight trail often ascending or descending very steep grade at the same time so plenty of 1st and 2nd gear plonking. Scrambling over logs sometimes in tangled piles. Near stopped clutch work to work through the most awkward stuff. Without doubt, lifting at many log and other obstacles including mud with occasions of getting stuck in it and having to lift & drag to get out sometimes running the bike at the same time as pushing.

Challenging stuff with fast logging roads thrown in between. A bike for these conditions not only needs to have all the handling and power questions well in-hand, but must also have very good low speed manners not prone to stalling or hard/jerky low end power delivery.

I know these 2-strokes fall into this category. Do today's 4-strokes meet this set of riding requirements too? If so, how is the Berg in these conditions compared to similar model KTM or TM?

Any good gut feelings from you guys out there with your butts in the saddle of these bikes will be much appreciated!

Good Stuff!

Hey all!

Thanks for the all honest feedback so far. I know the Bergs are great bikes but I wanted some inside feel from real riders (and not just my local area dealer...who is also a great guy and steady rider...but...)

What is this auto clutch Berger mentioned? Is this a gag I missed getting or what?

Sorry to hear that the E-starter is not a complete cure for the 4-stroke starting woes. Of all the things that I do NOT want in my next bike, consistent hard starting would top the list. Due to previous experience with 4-strokes (admittedly quite a few years older in technology) and literally losing podium places due to the stalling combined with non-starting, that is something I would go to great lengths to avoid.

I have a great lust for a newer, big engine, high performance 4-stroke, but I may wait until I can have a second bike to capture this dream. Then when I know I'm going into more open terrain riding (or a bit of MX) and not sweating the competitive side of things in the tight bush...I can take out my missile and flatten everything in front of me.

My mind is not fully made up yet, but I can feel a strong lean starting in the direction of the 2-strokes for my first bike acquisition in quite a few years. I may just have to live a bit longer without the added excitement of a killer 4-stroke.

I have a few old friends who have been falling in love with the Gas Gas 300 that a few of them now ride. The TM is very new to my radar as well as this region, but the feedback I've heard matches pretty closely with what Motoxotica said...faster & lighter than the other 300s but with less bottom grunt. The KTM...well, pretty much a steady old warhorse. A guy around here who has raced both the EXC300 and the TM300 described the EXC engine as an electric motor lacking the flatout blast but smooth and tractable everywhere.

Heard of another guy somewhere up around here who had an EXC but now rides the Gas Gas. Guess I should try to track him down and find out what made him switch....and find out how he likes the Gasser.

So many great bikes, and never enough time to get out and wear them out!!

The Learning Never Ends

Hey Guys!

More great feedback!

Husabutt just about made me blow my coffee with the Rokon "Trail-Breaker" reference. Although....being a total bike crazy, I've actually wanted one of these odd units since I first read about one years ago. Saw a guy tearing around on one after an MX in the mid-70s. The front wheel broke off at the steering head and the shirtless rider skidded out across the then upturned front cargo rack. That rack had the little rack fingers with ends exposed over the rack perimeter about 1/8". The poor guy looked like someone had taken a lawn rake to his chest and abs. Ouch.

I went to the Rekluse site for a further awakening to their automatic clutch. Cool. Anyone riding with one? Is it like the old Husky automatics that did not have any deceleration braking from the engine (those autos just freewheeled on deceleration)? I did not read everything on the site, but I would assume you must be able to adjust the engagement point relative to RPM? How is overall clutch life with one of these....do they slip much once under way or really engage fully like the standard clutch?

On the 2-stroke vs 4-stroke feedback, I seeing somewhat of a split in the group. The absolute thumper die hards and the broader thinking crew who happen to love the Bergs more than most other bikes.

I also see that some of you have great success with the electric starting while some have had less than perfect performance. I'm guessing clean jetting and battery/starter/ignition overall health may have a lot to do with starting results.

I have ridden a variety of bikes up in the terrain I'm going back into and I know what T-Jet is getting at with the smaller bikes. That really is why I'm seeking the seat-of-the-pants feedback from the whole Berg family. I'd love to have one, but it's tough to get one to take out and thrash around on to find out how it works in the tight going.

04' 450, geared down a bit, maintenance top shelf so the starter works, perhaps the trick clutch if I'm too old or lazy for the real thing.....then uncork it for MX outings as required....oops, started drooling....

Racket

T-Jet, I understand what you mean about 4-stroke volume. Not sure if the total decibels are higher but the kind of noise emitting from a tuned 4-stroke exhaust seems more invasive. Especially when there is a big group of thumpers ripping into it.

Had a first hand chance to experience this at the recent Washougal, WA. outdoor MX national standing inside the 2nd corner while the pack tore by and into the big uphill. Even as an experienced campaigner myself, I was suprised at the force of the 4-stroke rumble & kind of cowered a bit as my chest reverberated with the pulsing roar of the pack. My first experience back out at the races since 4-strokes have started to take over.

Neat....but definately not quiet.

Certainly no place for that kind of rumble out on the trails where non-bike traffic or resident area folks are present. Hell, bikers even yell at bikers for making too much racket around camping areas full of nothing but more bikers all out doing the same thing!

Sadly, the world, and our riding places that sometimes used to be very remote are getting more crowded with multi-use traffic everywhere. The only way we will be able to continue the passtime we love is to be good neighbors. Undoubtedl, that is going mean being quieter neighbors.

Does anyone else have the been there/done that exposure to the old tuned pipe 2-strokes before silencers became mandatory on the MX tracks? You needed to hear a starting line of circa early 70s open class Maicos, CZs, Huskys, Bultacos & the sprinkling of Japanese bikes there at the time to really appreciate bike noise at its frightening wildest. Early days of tuned exhausts with open "stingers" blarring and blatting madly. It acutally hurt to be there....and no one on the line had a clue exactly how hard their bikes were revving as there was no way to pick out the note of your own machine in that crushing din. Cool to experience, but something best left where it is way in the past. Pardon? Did somebody say something? Hearing seems to be off a bit...wonder why? Hmmm....

Can-Am, a Canadian 2-stroke back in the late 70's (that also had a short run with some Rotax powered 4-strokes before their ultimate end) had an MX 250 that was by leagues the quietest as well as the most powerful 250 around at the time. I don't remember the stock exhaust being particularly light, but it was sure quiet. The bikes sometimes looked funny since it didn't seem right that a bike with so little noise and fuss should be going so fast. So, it is possible to be both very quiet and efficient.

Hey...the weekend & some quality brew beckon. Good trails & long wheelies! I'll be out joining you again soon!

FE 400, eh?!

Hey Rob!

This is excellent feedback. You've certainly got the terrain I'm dealing with covered & more. Messing in my own back yard up here, one forgets taht this playground in the Rockies does blanket a large chunk of North America with the same type of conditions for everyone straying up into them.

Given your experience up in the same zone with such a wide array of bikes, your seat-of-the-pants determination of where the Berg fits in relative to that whole group is valuable information indeed!

I do have the potential to snag an 04 FE450 after the end of the active riding season this year. It's being ridden out of a Berg delership up here by one of the key guys in there trying to make the Bergs look good, so I know it will already be pretty well set up for the purpose and be as properly maintained as it can be. I'm starting to feel warmer about this opportunity all the time.

How has your Berg been on the reliability side of things out thrashing in the Rockies? Stuck together pretty well in both chassis and engine? How about regular maintenance to keep the bike in fine form.....does it ask for more attention on average that the other bikes you've owned to keep it in top shape?

Curious about the interval you use for checking/setting the valve rocker clearance. Some of the info I've read or received indicates some guys do it almost as often as lubing the chain. The XR500 and XR250 I rode in the past did not really need very frequent attention in this area. Is there some reason that the Berg engine wears these parts a lot more quickly, or are some guys just checking & fiddling because they like to and not because the engine needs constant attention in this area?

How sensitive is the engine to big altitude changes? With the last bike, KDX200, that I spent much time on out there, I had to pick a happy medium with the jetting. It ran a bit snotty and rich down where the rides all started, nice up about the middle of things, and always just a little lean up as high as we typically get. No real way to get it perfect at the altitude extremes but acceptable across the whole range. Does the Berg react the same way or is it less noticably affected in this way?

On a total tangent, how are these Bergs for hanging wheelies? I know power will get anything up there, but some bikes are far easier both to elevate and then to keep up there with a nice fat balance range. Sounds like the engine is likely smooth enough in delivery to make it less hair raising that on some bikes. I'm hoping to hear these bikes beg you to lift the front end and then make it easy to stay that way until you get tired and put it down again just for something else to do.

See'ya!

Rich or what?

Hey All!

Sorry for sounding like a total dork, in my last reply to the Rob guy, in regard to my comments about altitude and jetting. I'm not that dumb......honest.

The bike was of course lean way down in the trees and snotty up in the clouds. It strayed into both extremes as described, but the other way around. Hadn't used that brain cell for a while and typed before I thought.

Yes, Bill....down low, more air pressure (& O2) = leaner (less fuel to air); up high, less air pressure (& O2) = richer (more fuel to air). Now, repeat & remember....you can do it....uuunngggggg...

Anybody want me to do their jetting?