09 fe570 with 610 + cam

So my drilling rig is broken down and I'm on top of a mountain waiting for parts and being really bored, so here is my favourite photoblog the whole build,

Hey jas666 is there any chance that you could post pics of your big end rollers pin and cage please ? I have a theory about the failures.

Ask Carrillo if they have the KTM 530 rod in the system, only difference as you know is the wrist pin size. May speed up getting something made for you if they did.

Torque Monster said:

Ask Carrillo if they have the KTM 530 rod in the system, only difference as you know is the wrist pin size. May speed up getting something made for you if they did.

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Sure did ask them mate, they weren't sure about the big end 0.D. they told me that a hardened sleeve was needed and concerned that the material left was near or less than .200". But it's cool Travis from thumper racing hooked me up with a aftermarket rod kit, the bike is back together and I just enjoy riding it when I can and looking at it when I can't ride it :bounce3:

So my theory in regards to the big end roller track flaking out at the top side has a fair bit to do with the work of Mr Irving and his incredibly informative publication "Tuning for speed". In there he explains that the big end roller assembly is the most heavily stressed component, due to dealing with acceleration deceleration and the change rotaional direction of the big end relative to the crank pin as the rod accelerates up from bdc and then decelerates through the tdc dwell, then acceleration away from tdc in the opposite relative direction.

This becomes a real issue if the roller cage I allows to rub on either the crank pin or in this instance the roller track of the big end as the soft material I the cage will wear the pin or big end faster than if being rubbed by material of the same hardness. It makes sense to me as I had galling all round the o.d. of the roller cage ( didn't photograph the cage :cuss: please if you have a blown up 70 degree bearing cage post up a photo please !) and in my work as a diamond driller I use soft compound drilling tools for rock formations of a high hardness and vice versa.

There is witness of the cage rubbing the pin in the photos on the last page, the damage to all 3 70 degree rod I have seen are in that area where the swing of the rod changes direction and so the rollers and cage must as well, if the inertia is greater than the friction between the rollers and track then there will be sliding or skidding at that point as well just to complicate things.

How to fix ? A cage of slightly smaller od with hard chrome plating on the bars of the cage to resist the rubbing action I would suppose.

well if you go drilling for unobtainium using depleted pananoia as head lube on top of a mountain then your starting with a pretty high friction arrangement from the get go, as the depletion nears unity there is usually a juxtaposition of roles at the business end :wink:

some big end bearing listings http://www.pro-x.com/downloads/technical.pdf

so I got 2 questions

are the cages silver plated when new ?

and are the failed rods from 09 bikes only ?

gazza and others reported some rod big end failures in their 09 bikes but not the later ones, not sure what the difference was.

The orginal cage was silver plated and in mint condition, not even a sctratch but the new replacement part was not silver plated.That fact scares me a little bit. In my world a silver cage us better than just a hardened one.I hope I'm wrong...

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bushmechanic said:

well if you go drilling for unobtainium using depleted pananoia as head lube on top of a mountain then your starting with a pretty high friction arrangement from the get go, as the depletion nears unity there is usually a juxtaposition of roles at the business end :wink:

some big end bearing listings http://www.pro-x.com/downloads/technical.pdf

so I got 2 questions

are the cages silver plated when new ?

and are the failed rods from 09 bikes only ?

gazza reported some rod failures in their 09 bikes

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Tigers bike is a 2011
Berg fe 390 reported a failure on a 2010 390
Tourist has a 2010 that may be on the way out
And I'm not sure about jas666 what year is it ?

I didn't take notice of the cage, I gave the rod kit and crank to my " rocket engineer " friend as soon as I got it. Wish I had read tuning for speed years ago... Careful inspection and record keeping is in the first chapter.

Sometimes fluid gradient overcomes the formation fracture gradient and then bad things happen :shock:

My wheeliebeast is a 09 with 120h.I bought it new so I can guarantee 120h.

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JAS666 said:

My wheeliebeast is a 09 with 120h.I bought it new so I can guarantee 120h.

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Ha ha wheeliebeast, excellent name ! Thanks for the info, can I ask where you got your rod kit ?

Sent from my iPhone on top of a mountain.

I bought an orginal Husaberg/KTM kit.

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JAS666 said:

I bought an orginal Husaberg/KTM kit.

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Interesting perhaps ktm have caught the problem and slipped in a modified bearing cage to address a problem.

Pro x lists 22.354220f bearing Silver flat cage

berglsmerg said:

Tourist has a 2010 that may be on the way out

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Don't say it ... *sticks fingers in ears* !! ... But yeah, it's true!

I was wondering: my 2010 570 has probably always had the ignition map set to aggressive w/ a switch. Something to think about? Maybe stock is stock for a reason

I've put an hour or so on the bike since the last oil change when I found the swarf / particles. Going to have a look at the oil screen. Are there any signs that it'd be useful to watch for or things you're curious about, in case I have an engine that is *about to go*? In other words, where should I look for evidence that is useful to analyse the trend?

If the coating on the big end is flaking, then how is it diagnosed for sure? Does the crank have to be pressed apart or can it be measured through tolerances or seen "from the outside" somehow?

These are the steps as I see them:
Step 1: Check the oil screen. If particles, then wash, examine closely, take pictures and post.
Step 2: Remove an engine cover or two and poke around - what to poke at? Can I at this step tell anything conclusive about the big end?
Step 3: Split cases, have a closer look?
Step 4: Press apart crankshaft, inspect and document.

(I don't have tools to split the cases but could probably borrow, and Step 4 I'd need to get done at a shop - so those steps aren't likely to yield useful information very soon - broke atm - therefore I'm thinking to make the most of step 1 and 2.)

Check your Step1,smal tiny metal spikes seems to be normal but if there is metalsludge you´re doomed,specially if the sludge contains chromed pieces.I also cut up my oilfiltres to check for chromeflakes.Chrome flakes/sludge is as sign of a broken bearing.

I could feel the gap in the conrod by hand,but you have to remove head and cylinder.Removing Engine and taking off head+cylinder takes about 3beers a normal weekday :mrgreen:

Btw.....

[attachment=0:3cb84a7z]2014-03-07 17.10.00.jpg[/attachment:3cb84a7z]

Welcome to Sweden my precious :rock:

JAS666 said:

Check your Step1,smal tiny metal spikes seems to be normal but if there is metalsludge you´re doomed,specially if the sludge contains chromed pieces.I also cut up my oilfiltres to check for chromeflakes.Chrome flakes/sludge is as sign of a broken bearing.

I could feel the gap in the conrod by hand,but you have to remove head and cylinder.Removing Engine and taking off head+cylinder takes about 3beers a normal weekday :mrgreen:

Btw.....

[attachment=0:nfehthck]2014-03-07 17.10.00.jpg[/attachment:nfehthck]

Welcome to Sweden my precious :rock:

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congratulations!!


- and thanks for the info!!

There was indeed some sludge last time :/ ... Or yeah, with my limited experience I'd call it sludge ...



a few more pics here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18292


I took a video just now ... is that a clattering/knocking/hammering type sound I hear? Seems to be more audible from the left side. From somewhere, well, where the big end should be, or hmm actually I'd locate point a bit further forward, towards the cylinder. But hard to tell.

Does anything jump out at you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RkC_qUFje8

(I loooooooove the reverb down in the basement car park here at work.)

Kris that is the death rattle, take the head and cylinder off, wind the crank over to tdc and push and pull on the rod in the plane of the cylinder. You will feel radial play. Stop riding it now and you will save piston and liner maybe. :cry:

I showed you a general selection of the tools in the first page, cylindrical rollers make splitting the cases really easy.

Jas666 that looks sweet, you will be assembling soon by the looks.

Oh well Good to know - thank you!

I'm actually looking forward to doing the work, it's only the money part that's less fun. Might sell the Suzuki, but I really really don't want to. Will probably find some junk around the house to sell. refrigerator, washing machine, who really needs that stuff anyway?

- Sorry for the threadjack!!

Don't worry about the threadjack, I'm more concerned that you'll sell your refeidgerator and have no cold beer to help you fix your bike. :lol:

berglsmerg said:

Don't worry about the threadjack, I'm more concerned that you'll sell your refeidgerator and have no cold beer to help you fix your bike. :lol:

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Just snapped this one ... I think I'll figure something out for the beer Or facilitate the repairs with judicious use of hot toddy ..!



I'll have great support from some local mechanics for the rebuild. I won't want for competence! I'm already ahead a warm fuzzy feeling.

Jeez mate it looks well cold enough to freeze beer ! You could sell a kidney maybe ?

Gah, a nuked bearing in my Berg and my Suzuki is sideways ...

but ... I think I've figured out the logistics of doing this.

I'm looking forward news on the 610! do keep us posted, and thanks for this thread, it's been quite useful already to gain a better oversight

tourist said:

Gah, a nuked bearing in my Berg and my Suzuki is sideways ...

but ... I think I've figured out the logistics of doing this.

I'm looking forward news on the 610! do keep us posted, and thanks for this thread, it's been quite useful already to gain a better oversight

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Thanks mate, keep the faith ? Perhaps you could bomb the ass out of the motor as well as a rebuild ? Time to show these old school, floppy crank, stink bug high rear end, wheezy conrod, 206 main, junk riders a good lesson ! :war: