spark in relation to cranking speed.

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S

sara

Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
18
Location
CHORLEY, LANCS
Hi we have a 2002 650 motor, which has never had the starter or kick fitted as its always been a road racer.
Now this bike is being put on the road, with the starter fitted, but have a problem with no spark at cranking speed.
Uprated the starter, starter gears, sprag clutch etc. Even using a 35amp battery, cranking speed is still no better then 360rpm.
We need min 450rpm to get a spark.
Have tried severally complete ignition systems from running bikes, and mine on theres.

Amazing all the other bikes had there electric starters removed!

My query is, is there any way of amplifying the the cdi at crank speed, or any other starter motor that spins faster.

Any other ideas would be a welcome help.

Thanks Sara
 
you can purchase a 04 onwards starter motor and adaptor from the dealer this is a much stronger unit and should spin the motor fast enough to start.

cheers doug
 
hi and thanks for getting back so quick, we have tried what you surgested with no luck.. but if you come up with any other ideas, please post asap thanks
 
I suppose you have tried different CDI-boxes, spark plugs and hats? No mismatch with MX vs street flywheel/stator?
 
hi, yes we have tried the enduro and the supermoto setup of running bikes of our friends, still no joy. please anything else. Its also not a compresion issue as the plug is removed too. Even Dave Clark racing who are friends are still scratcin heads on this matter! agh!!!
 
Hi
So you say its not a compression issue ...... have you taken jump leads directly to your starter motor, with the plug out and the manual decompressor pulled in ?
Have you removed the starter motor and listened to the approximate RPM, for comparison ?
When you do spin it as normal ... does it seem to slow down on the compression stroke, or is it constant ?
Keep on testing
And let us know how ya get on
Regards
Ady
 
you need to speak to our resident ectrical expert - sparks. Pm hm with your question.

the only ote tip i have is to reduce the p;ug gap to .024".

regards

Taffy
 
well no spark even without the plug on, just the ht lead end on the engine with nooooo spark, works on mates still!!!
there aint much on the wiring on these things so its totally confusing.
all the above done. Will venture to the electrical expert for more advice. Thanks kind sir
 
sara

so you're saing that this engine was fine in a roadracer? correct? or that the whole bike was a roadracer and has been conveted to road use?

well i would give it a tow start first. stick a rope around the left footrest and pull it along in third. having established that it runs you have to keep it running and check a few things on it/adjust the carb, the ignition timing. then try and start it as soon as you've stopped it etc.

does the bike have an ignition key and clocks etc?

regards

Taffy
 
When you have tested different stators, did you take both cover/stator and flywheel from a working bike?

Does your bike turn slower on the starter than a working bike do?

And don´t worry! You don´t need testicals to have balls! :wink:

Keep us posted on the progress!
 
sara said:
Hi we have a 2002 650 motor, which has never had the starter or kick fitted as its always been a road racer.
Click to expand...

Hello Sara,

This may be an utterly stupid question but your engine does have all the necessary decompression items fitted, doesn't it? Including the auto-decomp mechanism inside the head?

The other thing is, have you tested the difference in cranking speed between motor as it should compared to with the spark plug removed from the cylinder head? What is the difference?

Simon
 
RE: Re: spark in relation to cranking speed.

i didn't realise it but sparks has probably PM'd sara with the offer of a meal for two anytime she's in espana and as a little precursor he happened to mention that she needs a live feed to the white wire from the SEM.

apparently sara now has a little spark all of her own! (LOL!)

regards

Taffy
 
RE: Re: spark in relation to cranking speed.

Hi there to all, I have been away a little chatting to SPARKS, who has been brilliant and sussed out the problem which is below--

++++++Right you have just said it sparks ok from the kick, try this, when the ignition is on test for 12vdc on the white wire coming from the cdi when you hit the start button this wire should become live it sends 12vdc into the cdi to compromise for the slower cranking this could be why your ignition system works OK on another bike, just a thought. +++++++

Regarding this, what we did was, go and borrow a 7 wire coil of our friend which had a WHITE wire on, as mine has 5 wire and NO WHITE. We have previously borrowed a 7 wire one identical, of another runnin bike which didnt work?
You beat me to it TAFFY!! Since then we have found that for odd reason after putting the power to the WHITE wire and spark, we are also getting a spark when we remove the power of the white wire??? This totally wierd!
The BUZZ is now I have a spark, but its not a very strong one but probley enough to start it at the moment. We are wondering WHY now after trying to the same coil/cdi's one is producing the spark?

And if anyone could throw me the answer to what do the 6 other wires are for, its all trial and error at the moment if you get my drift.

There will be many thanks for sparks and taffy an all you others who have helped, and will hopefully be giving a report when it actually goes mobile (cross fingers)
 
RE: Re: spark in relation to cranking speed.

The bike was built for the track which is about 100kilo, in the style of a lets say a smaller version of my spondon single which was in a tz125 based frame. After owning a supermotor before, which I love and well miss it now, being a 500kx built before supermotors even started being sold out the shops, it was fun but me being little and lite used to rip my arms of, legs everywhere etc.
So with the love of the big single motors and power of these motors, its turning into wolf in sheeps clothing aha!

Ps, you cant get a true reading on crank speed of a kickstart revolution as the tester needs a consistant run of turning the engine over.
 

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RE: Re: spark in relation to cranking speed.

So to SPARKS do i still need to put the power to the white permanant as an idea, as to why the two different coils/cdi were the same we tried. Im totally buzzing now I have a spark, I got so excited last night I got told to chill out! ha!
 
Re: RE: Re: spark in relation to cranking speed.

Hi Sara,

This is something I can't explain to why all of a sudden you are getting a spark from the other cdi.
No the 12v is only present when the start button is pressed not constant.
The seven wires are
BLACK = EARTH
ORANGE= IGNITION KILL (female connector)
WHITE 12V = WHEN START BUTTON IS PRESSED
GREEN = TRIGGER COIL ON STATOR
BLACK = COMMON EARTH FOR STATOR COILS
RED = OUTPUT IGNITION SOURCE COILS
GREY = WHEN THIS WIRE IS GROUNDED IT ALTERS THE IGNITION CHARACTERISTICS.

Like I said on a reasonable kick with out plug in the spark performance should be around 8 to 10mm.
If all is well on the kick but not on the start this could be mechanical and I think there is one or two that have suffered this problem.

Oh and Taffy, you should be a comedian LOL. :twisted: :twisted:

Regards

Sparks.
 
RE: Re: RE: Re: spark in relation to cranking speed.

OKI DOKE dude, info thankfull of. And its looking like were goin for the start engine for first time in ages tonight so ill get back if were cracking flags ..xxxxx
 
RE: Re: RE: Re: spark in relation to cranking speed.

Well it bad news, the spark has decided it dont want to play 90% of the time, worse then intermitent!!!! why why why is it being so bad to me! I GIVE UP!
 
RE: Re: RE: Re: spark in relation to cranking speed.

get the wingdiagram from the downloads and pritt off nice and big. A3 size (in the UK that's a poster).

keep going, we've all been there!

regards

Taffy
 

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