Ignition system fix... first time, every time e-start!

Hello people,
I've posted somewhere else in the electrical section on my continuing woes with the inadequate e-start performance of my 2002 FE400e... in short, it didn't e-start hot or cold despite all the suggested starter upgrades and perfect mechanical condition.

Many modifications later I found the real culprit (for me) was very very poor ignition performance during starting. I have built two solutions, both of which are simple, but one is so cheap it's perhaps worth me posting the details.

So having discovered an incredibly short spark duration and pitiful spark energy from the OE SEM ignition during kick and e-start, my first solution was to build an inductive ignition system. This uses a small ignition coil from a Sherco and a very simple driver. Digital electronics, fully programmable igntion curve, the whole works. Perfect starting hot or cold on the button... but it cost over 50€ in components plus the coil (it was free, lying around in my workshop). Not unreasonable, but I thought if anyone else wanted to do this, it's not the cheapest solution; I could do better.

Looking at the SEM system in fine detail showed the poor spark output was a result of very low capacitor charge-coil performance. I'd already subsituted a completely new SEM stator for the original 2002 part fitted to my bike, so that ruled-out a rewind as a fix. What about the rotor? Guessing poor magnetic performance I arranged for a loan of a 'new' flywheel. The new part had noticeably "stronger" magnets, based on the fantastically subjective measurement of sticking a screwdriver to them and feeling how difficult it was to pull it off again! Fitted, this just about fixed the problem: the bike would start after a few seconds of cranking. Price? 180€ Way above what I'd be prepared to pay, so it went back...

Reasoning the output of the capacitor charge coils was too low, and this was only a problem for starting (the ignition was fine once the engine was started), why not try to augment the charge coils a bit during cranking?? Adding a 3€ CCFL inverter in parallel with the charge coil output told me the answer... a resounding yes! It works!

I've wired the 12V invertor supply via the starter solenoid control so it's only 'on' during e-start cranking, and the output of the invertor (400V AC) permanantly to the red wire of the CDI.

First time starting every time, hot and cold, directly off the e-start button! For only 3€. I call that a success.

I'm not expecting any response, but if anyone wants more detail either post here or send me a PM.

Cheers... Paul

well done paul and thanks for sharing. I'll PM sparks and let him know and I'm sure he'll join in.

just to let you know that the white wire to the CDI ia already charged with taking battery power straight to the CDI augmenting that coming off the crank during cranking. could it not have been fixed through the white wire?

regards

Taffy

Thanks Taffy.
I was aware of the white wire to the CDI and that it was supplied with 12V during cranking only, but its exact purpose is not at all clear to me. I think I decided some time ago that it was a solution to give a ******** ignition timing during cranking, but I've not yet tried to investigate further, so this is little more than a guess. Do you or Sparks have any information on this? A schematic of the CDI would be the biggest help.

My CDI does have the white wire and it is supplied with 12V during cranking as it should be... but if the intended function is to help charge the capacitor, it simply doesn't work. Maybe my CDI is getting a bit old and not as Husaberg intended? Hmmm.

Irrespective of this though, with the CCFL inverter fitted the bike starts on the first compression event when hot, usually the second when cold. Turn on the fuel, (choke if cold) press the button and away. Without the inverter, it's kick-start only... and all the associated hassle.

What can you tell me about the CDI and the mysterious white wire?

Cheers and regards... Paul

Hi TINWELP

Anithyng to start a husaberg is a big help !!!
I do understand very litle of electrics, your solution is only for e-start or is it a help to the kick start for the one of us that don't have starter ??

Thanks
:cheers:
ZAGA

Hi ZAGA,
it does appear to help with the kick-start performance too, but I cannot be sure as my bike will normally kick-start on the first or second kick anyway when hot. From cold it was usually a few kicks with the choke on and no ignition, then turn the ignition on, choke off and it would start on anywhere between the first or the fourth kick. WITH the inverter it seemed to be first or second kick from cold too... But I only tried it like this for a short time (three cold starts I think). I was chasing e-start performance!

Do you have a battery on your bike? If you do, the only tricky thing is how to turn the inverter on and off reliably and automatically. You could rig up a microswitch to turn the unit on when the decompressor is active, but it will take some work to make it durable and waterpoof. Possibly a better way is to make a circuit to detect when the capacitor supply voltage is under 100V or so and turn on the inverter; turning it off once the engine is running and the voltage from the stator becomes sensible. All you'll then need is an "ignition" switch to disable the inverter being switched on when the engine is stopped. Another very simple way is to just have a switch to turn the inverter on and off... but will you remember to turn it off??? I would forget. I'm not sure how durable the inverter would be if left turned on all the time. It may not be a problem, but I've not tested it.

If you do not have a battery on the bike, you will need to be able to supply 12V DC somehow... probably only needs a few hundred milliamps (I've not measured it), and only for a short period, so you could even consider using 'dry-cells'.

As soon as I have a few spare minutes I'll post a sketch of the wiring schematic I've used on my bike. I'm sure it will be of interest to someone, and may even premote debate and other solutions.

Cheers and regards... Paul

Hi

Yes it would be very interesting, since all of us who ride old bergs have some kind of starting problems.

Those bikes perform very well, they have more power that most of us need. But if they are a ***** to start we don't whant to ride them.

I have both situations that you have mentioned, I have a FE400E-02, that starts fairly well with kick but makes the same thing like yours, and have a friend with a FX470-01 without battery or starter that is a *****.

I have made a new wiring for both bike, I can understand the sketch and what things are for, but that is as far as I go in electrics.

If you could publish the sketch of both solutions, with the reference of the new parts needed, and with pictures for guidence, it would be great.

Thanks for sharing your discoverys with all of us that still riding old bergs.

Thanks
:cheers:
ZAGA

One more thing

I was thinking, if you have a power source (battery) maybe you could have a button like the kill switch just for the start, so you could use it with the e-start or the kick, and then with the bike runing you would thake your hand out of the button and it would be normal.

What do you think ?

:cheers:
ZAGA

I haved the same problem with starting the bike cold or hot (when dropped the bike) till today.
I received my stator from rewind , now bike starts from 2 kicks on cold and from the button every time even when i drop the bike. And revs up better from low rpm.

I did my rewind here in Poland by those guys : http://www.elektronika-motocyklowa.pl/m ... aberg.html they do all stators ( thicker wire ) ,and coils.
I have paid for the job 112 pounds it take them 5 days. :bounce3:

It look like these after the rewind.

tinwelp said:

Hi ZAGA,
it does appear to help with the kick-start performance too, but I cannot be sure as my bike will normally kick-start on the first or second kick anyway when hot. From cold it was usually a few kicks with the choke on and no ignition, then turn the ignition on, choke off and it would start on anywhere between the first or the fourth kick. WITH the inverter it seemed to be first or second kick from cold too... But I only tried it like this for a short time (three cold starts I think). I was chasing e-start performance!

Do you have a battery on your bike? If you do, the only tricky thing is how to turn the inverter on and off reliably and automatically. You could rig up a microswitch to turn the unit on when the decompressor is active, but it will take some work to make it durable and waterpoof. Possibly a better way is to make a circuit to detect when the capacitor supply voltage is under 100V or so and turn on the inverter; turning it off once the engine is running and the voltage from the stator becomes sensible. All you'll then need is an "ignition" switch to disable the inverter being switched on when the engine is stopped. Another very simple way is to just have a switch to turn the inverter on and off... but will you remember to turn it off??? I would forget. I'm not sure how durable the inverter would be if left turned on all the time. It may not be a problem, but I've not tested it.

If you do not have a battery on the bike, you will need to be able to supply 12V DC somehow... probably only needs a few hundred milliamps (I've not measured it), and only for a short period, so you could even consider using 'dry-cells'.

As soon as I have a few spare minutes I'll post a sketch of the wiring schematic I've used on my bike. I'm sure it will be of interest to someone, and may even premote debate and other solutions.

Cheers and regards... Paul

Click to expand...

Nice work Paul!
I'll use it as soon as you've posted the sketch. :cheers:

Couldn't you connect a button that you have to press down to turn the inverter on? (same mechanical function as a starter button) You would have to push two buttons to start the bike but you wouldn't forget to turn off the inverter.

regards

/Nick

ZAGA and Nick,
a press-and-hold button would work well for the e-start solution, but could you press and hold whilst you kick-start?

I think it's a minor issue which ultimately comes down to personal preference, so there are likely many simple solutions. Here's what I've done on my FE400e which is fully automatic for e-starting:



The inverter you can find at many places on the web. Search for "Lamptron CCFL inverter" and look for a single channel device. Here's a link to one example in the UK: http://www.chilledpc.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1835

Be aware there may be subtle differences between whatever inverter you get and the one I've used. If you're not sure of the wiring, show me a picture of the one you get and I'll try to point you in the right direction.

Happy starting.

Cheers and regards... Paul

Very good

The image in your gallery is a real art work !!!

Unfortunatly the image on your last post I can't see it. Is it the same as the one from the gallery ?

The inverter that I saw from your link is a open box, is it like that ?? How did you seal it from water ?
When I searched the web I saw some in closed boxes, I will look and send you the link for you to see.

:cheers:
ZAGA

Hi Zaga,
yes they are the same. I don't understand why the image doesn't appear in the post. I've even tried loading the image in two formats, but still no success. Any suggestions? I noticed PolandHusa made an attachment with his photo, not using the '[ img] [ /img]' insertion tool. Perhaps I'll try that later.

Happy to see you appreciate real art! :mrgreen: Powerpoint is a wonderfully adaptable tool...

Yes the inverter is supplied open. For the moment I have it sealed inside a few layers of 'heat-shrink' tube, with the end welded shut. I intend to install it inside a small electronics project case now that it has proven itself to be super-reliable. RS or Farnell is my usual supplier for such cases, but they are a bit expensive. With a little luck I'll find something suitable in my workshop. I'll probably encapsulate the whole thing in potting compound to make it super robust. RS or Farnell (or my workshop!!) will be able to supply this too. A super-cheap solution would be to just coat the inverter with a few layers of two-part epoxy resin, then a little heat-shrink when it's dry.

If you can find a sealed inverter, this will save you the trouble of course. Take care on the size of the case, and make sure it's sensibly sealed, not just a shell of plastic.

Cheers... Paul

To Post the image using IE, click on the image in your gallery and right click and select properties. Then copy the Address (URL) in the Properties window.
When making or replying to a post, Click the little "Img" button and you see the following pop up in your post:

[i mg][/i mg]

Your cursor should be in the moddle of the 2 brackets img things. Paste the copied Address in there and your image will be in your post.

Thanks Davo.
This is close to what I was doing, but I'm using Firefox as a browser these days, not IE... and it seems to work a little differently! Even though I'd inserted the image URL as described, no matter what I did, it would not display the picture correctly.

Using IE and the exact procedure you describe has fixed the problem. Why, I don't know, as the address reads identically to that which it was when in Firefox (there's a mouthful for the non-english speakers amongst you).

One of life's little mysteries to ponder on if and when we ever get around to retiring...

Cheers... Paul

Hi

I think your solutuion of the epoxi would be best, you can also make the conections of the earth wires inside the epoxi and only one wire came out to conect to the black.

The guys that sell this inverter also sell the conectors to go with it ?

What is the real dimension of this box ?

Thanks
:cheers:
ZAGA

PS. I wonder why sparks doesn't make any coments on this ?

tinwelp said:

Thanks Taffy.
I was aware of the white wire to the CDI and that it was supplied with 12V during cranking only, but its exact purpose is not at all clear to me. I think I decided some time ago that it was a solution to give a ******** ignition timing during cranking, but I've not yet tried to investigate further, so this is little more than a guess. Do you or Sparks have any information on this? A schematic of the CDI would be the biggest help.

My CDI does have the white wire and it is supplied with 12V during cranking as it should be... but if the intended function is to help charge the capacitor, it simply doesn't work. Maybe my CDI is getting a bit old and not as Husaberg intended? Hmmm.

Irrespective of this though, with the CCFL inverter fitted the bike starts on the first compression event when hot, usually the second when cold. Turn on the fuel, (choke if cold) press the button and away. Without the inverter, it's kick-start only... and all the associated hassle.

What can you tell me about the CDI and the mysterious white wire?

Cheers and regards... Paul

Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

The answer to your question regarding what happens when you feed the White 12v is it drops the spark threshold down to around 70 to 80 rpm, also ******* the ignition by about 4 degrees.
But this was tested with one of my rewound stators that gives a lower spark threshold anyway, in my job I never see a working original stator.

Regards

Steve.

Hi Sparks

I'm the proof that your stators work !! I have one and it works great !
Also its not true that you never seen on working stator, because I've sent you mine even before it broke :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Now seriously, what is your opinion on this solution ??

Thanks
:cheers:
ZAGA

Another thing Sparks

The grey wire, that goes to the HI/LOW allready can ****** the ingition when not conected to earth, I think.

When you put the 12V on the white one it ******* even more ??

Thanks
ZAGA

zaga said:

Hi

I think your solutuion of the epoxi would be best, you can also make the conections of the earth wires inside the epoxi and only one wire came out to conect to the black.

The guys that sell this inverter also sell the conectors to go with it ?

What is the real dimension of this box ?

Thanks
:cheers:
ZAGA

PS. I wonder why sparks doesn't make any coments on this ?

Click to expand...

Hi ZAGA,
my inverter was suppied without connectors, so I just soldered directly to the male pins. I'm not going to want to disconnect it at the board, so why bother with the connector? By all means add one, but it would just be one more potential thing to go wrong.

I've found a box in my workshop as expected that the inverter will fit into nicely. Internal dimensions are 75mm x 30mm x 20mm high. It's a die-cast aluminium box with a proper lid and seals, so I'll forego the potting.

If you want a cheap box, you could probably fit the inverter into a short length of PVC water pipe of 25 or 30mm bore. Either buy some blanking caps to fit the pipe or even fill the complete thing with epoxy...

Cheers... Paul

sparks said:

tinwelp said:

Thanks Taffy.
I was aware of the white wire to the CDI and that it was supplied with 12V during cranking only, but its exact purpose is not at all clear to me. I think I decided some time ago that it was a solution to give a ******** ignition timing during cranking, but I've not yet tried to investigate further, so this is little more than a guess. Do you or Sparks have any information on this? A schematic of the CDI would be the biggest help.

My CDI does have the white wire and it is supplied with 12V during cranking as it should be... but if the intended function is to help charge the capacitor, it simply doesn't work. Maybe my CDI is getting a bit old and not as Husaberg intended? Hmmm.

Irrespective of this though, with the CCFL inverter fitted the bike starts on the first compression event when hot, usually the second when cold. Turn on the fuel, (choke if cold) press the button and away. Without the inverter, it's kick-start only... and all the associated hassle.

What can you tell me about the CDI and the mysterious white wire?

Cheers and regards... Paul

Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

The answer to your question regarding what happens when you feed the White 12v is it drops the spark threshold down to around 70 to 80 rpm, also ******* the ignition by about 4 degrees.
But this was tested with one of my rewound stators that gives a lower spark threshold anyway, in my job I never see a working original stator.

Regards

Steve.

Click to expand...

Marvellous. Many thanks Steve. Is it safe to assume the threshold is applied to the trailing edge of the trigger sensor signal, or is it a little cleverer than that? I've read in a few places on the forum that the CDI has an on-board processor, but I strongly doubt this. Have you un-potted one and is it all analog?

I appreciate this is your business, so I'll understand if you don't want to answer that question... I'm just a curious soul who likes to know how things work.

Cheers and regards... Paul