Help.. Out of Ideas.. Bike is Possessed

bkowal · Sep 16, 2013

I have been chasing these demons for months, just about given up.

My '09 FE450 runs great until maybe 30 minutes to a hour into the ride. Sometimes it takes longer. The bike will start hesitating then progressively get worse until it regularly stalls at all throttle positions until it is almost un-rideable. Its great fun trying to do a hill climb when you have no idea if the bike will stall half way up :x
Also there is no way I can race like this. Unless I get this sorted in the next day or two, my race season will be over and the bike will be up for sale.

Anyway, here is a list of things I have done to try an resolve this problem:

- new fuel pump (thought this would fix it last ride, but no difference)
- new injector
- new crank sensor
- wired cooling fan to run all the time
- moved the air temp sensor
- spark plug
- plug cap

It seems to be heat related but don't know what else to do. The nature of the problem also means its difficult to test. Any ideas? My only other idea is a failed coolant temperature sensor.

Kayeffess · Sep 16, 2013

What about the ecu? Can it be reprogrammed? What about finding someone with the same bike and trying to convince them to borrow their ecu? Or replacing the unit. I know nothing about FI but would find it hard to give up on something like this.

jon andersson · Sep 16, 2013

Have you installed the 10 micron inline filter? If you have, remove it and try again. I had the same problem on my -12 where it was installed.

bkowal · Sep 16, 2013

jon andersson said:
Have you installed the 10 micron inline filter? If you have, remove it and try again. I had the same problem on my -12 where it was installed.

I installed a new injector to fix this problem and also installed the small filter that came in the kit. I have maybe 10 hours on the bike since then.

bkowal · Sep 16, 2013

Kayeffess said:
What about the ecu? Can it be reprogrammed? What about finding someone with the same bike and trying to convince them to borrow their ecu? Or replacing the unit. I know nothing about FI but would find it hard to give up on something like this.

I find it hard to give up (I have been married for 25 years), but I can't find the problem. It has been one thing after another with this bike.

Rensho · Sep 16, 2013

That really sucks to read. I know you're probably ready to burn the bike.

Try chasing after an electrical front, rather than fuel. These bikes have also had issues with ground and power lines. Start at the battery. Some folks have had loose connections there, causing hair pulling. Snug that sucker up, without tearing the posts off. ;-) Good luck.
Also check for wire rubbing thru near the shock. All this is most easily done by taking off the subframe and giving full view of all those wires, as well as some tlc while you're there.

bkowal · Sep 16, 2013

Rensho said:
Snug that sucker up, without tearing the posts off. ;-) Good luck.
Also check for wire rubbing thru near the shock. All this is most easily done by taking off the subframe and giving full view of all those wires, as well as some tlc while you're there.

Thanks for the tips, but been there, done that. Replaced the battery because they terminal was a bit crunched, I also just checked the wiring loom near the shock. I had previously installed a hose clamp around the base of the shock reservoir to stop the wear there. I also zipp tied a shield around the cable where it runs beside the shock because it was starting to wear.

This doesn't appear to be an electrical problem. Bike starts fine at all times, and doesn't quickly stall. It just hesitates and stalls. It might consider it to be the ignition coil, but the problem really occurs mostly around throttle just off idle, then the bike may or may not quickly accelerate. I would say 60% of the time, it will bog out of the corner, which has led to me to fall over a couple times since I go to grab some power and nothing is there.

jon andersson · Sep 16, 2013

Remove that small filter before you try anything fancy.

I used 95 octane fuel that had 10% ethanol in it. That clogged that 10 micron filter quite fast and when it gets warm the filter mesh swelled up. So when I started the bike it ran just fine, then the performance slowly degraded until it started to backfire to finally die. About 30 min..
I removed that filter and it was 100% again. KTM later came out with a better (?) filter that was grey, I had the first bad version that was black. I don't know what color yours has, but if it's black toss it away. I would recommend to toss the grey too and install a better filter. I use a Golan super mini filter, 10 micron.
Easy and quick to find out if that is the problem, so wait with stripping the bike to check cables until you ruled out this.

I agree that it's wise to check the cables as the electronics can go crazy if there's a grounding problem. Last 45 h service I found 3 places on the loom. However the probability for an electrical problem to slowly get worse over a 30 min period is small. Also the fact that you loose power when you give gas indicates that the fuel is restricted.

logjump · Sep 16, 2013

Have you tried something as simple as the fuel cap breather which may be causing a vapor lock? (didn't see that on your list) The one-way breathers can malfunction so imo, it should be a free-flowing breather tube.

fe390vt · Sep 16, 2013

did u replace the plug wire? Both my bro and I have had issues with ours. We ride in wet and muddy conditions. Mine was corroded at the plug end because the bend was too tight, allowing moisture through the boot. My brother's was actually arcing to the radiator after water crossings... I was able to snip a quarter inch of mine and rescrew it, followed by a bit of silicone.
Easy test for arcing . dark room, spray bottle, engine running, u will see any arcing

bkowal · Sep 16, 2013

logjump said:
Have you tried something as simple as the fuel cap breather which may be causing a vapor lock? (didn't see that on your list) The one-way breathers can malfunction so imo, it should be a free-flowing breather tube.

Yup... check valve in cap has been removed.

bkowal · Sep 16, 2013

fe390vt said:
did u replace the plug wire? Both my bro and I have had issues with ours. We ride in wet and muddy conditions. Mine was corroded at the plug end because the bend was too tight, allowing moisture through the boot. My brother's was actually arcing to the radiator after water crossings... I was able to snip a quarter inch of mine and rescrew it, followed by a bit of silicone.
Easy test for arcing . dark room, spray bottle, engine running, u will see any arcing

Did that...water doesn't seem to be an issue, I did some crazy mud races this year without a problem.

bkowal · Sep 16, 2013

jon andersson said:
Remove that small filter before you try anything fancy.

II agree that it's wise to check the cables as the electronics can go crazy if there's a grounding problem. Last 45 h service I found 3 places on the loom. However the probability for an electrical problem to slowly get worse over a 30 min period is small. Also the fact that you loose power when you give gas indicates that the fuel is restricted.

Thanks, that makes sense, I will try removing the filter. I installed the grey filter. I try to use gas without ethanol, but sometimes its hard to get.

Rensho · Sep 16, 2013

My bike does not have the small filter at the injector. I guess the previous owner left it out, and it has been fine for me for 2kmi.

You might have a faulty TPS, if it bogs or dies off idle.

berger · Sep 16, 2013

So what does it take to get the beast running again? Sit for half hour then good for awhile?? Stator charging good when hot?

WoodsRooster · Sep 16, 2013

bkowal said:
logjump said:

Have you tried something as simple as the fuel cap breather which may be causing a vapor lock? (didn't see that on your list) The one-way breathers can malfunction so imo, it should be a free-flowing breather tube.

Click to expand...

Yup... check valve in cap has been removed.

You didnt replace the gas cap vent hose with one of those one way valve stubby hoses did you? I learned that one the hard way several years ago.

jon andersson · Sep 16, 2013

WoodsRooster said:
bkowal said:

logjump said:

Have you tried something as simple as the fuel cap breather which may be causing a vapor lock? (didn't see that on your list) The one-way breathers can malfunction so imo, it should be a free-flowing breather tube.

Click to expand...

Yup... check valve in cap has been removed.

Click to expand...

You didnt replace the gas cap vent hose with one of those one way valve stubby hoses did you? I learned that one the hard way several years ago.

I'm about to install one on my bike. Whats wrong with it?

bkowal · Sep 17, 2013

Thanks for all the replies,

I think I might have found the problem. I am 90% sure this is it. Jon Anderson had it right. Its that small fuel filter before the injector. I removed it, and blew through it. It seems somewhat restrictive but it still flowed. I threw it into a glass of water at 85C to warm it up. I could barely blow through it!

I will confirm tonight after I get in a solid hour around my test track.

Thanks again for your support. Now its off to the Corduroy Enduro this weekend! (I hope)
http://corduroyenduro.ca/blog/

fe390vt · Sep 17, 2013

I just cleaned my injector filter, bike got progressively worse through out the day until it finally died. I'm pretty sure the "new" pump I just installed was the culprit. I bought a used pump assembly that had been sitting for the better part of the year. On day one the bike already started cutting out when going braking into turns, at idle more or less. Day 2 A couple of backfires at beginning of ride. I adjusted my jd tuner to run more rich. The bike got noticebly better. Day 2, 2 hours later: bike becoming lean again, I adjusted the tuner to its maximum rich setting, it heled for another hour.
4 hours into the ride I couldn't climb a 25 degre hill in a field in 2nd gear without clutching the whole way up. Bike dying while at idle, constantly revving the throttle to keep from stalling. It got to the point that the bike finally quit after limping towards our start point. just backfiring...
So to get back to your issue... You won't be able to blow air through the injector because when it is disconnected, it is in the "closed" position. I was able to wire a drill battery for a test to get it to open. It then flowed freely. Be careful!!! the injector heat up really quick using this method. Too much amperage from the drill battery. The wisest way to test would be to reduce to 5 amps...Mine is back in the bike and running well, but my problem, I believe is/was that the in tank fuel filter had degraded from sitting dry for too long thus blowing fibers into the injector filter. That filter had quite a bit of material in it.
But it can't hurt to run injector cleaner through it...

jon andersson · Sep 17, 2013

His issue is not the filter in the injector, but the separate filter in the hose. A bath of 85 deg warm water wont change the injectors performance

A tip: use a normal 9V battery from a smoke detector to open up the injector when it's time to clean it. They do not get warm with that battery.

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Help.. Out of Ideas.. Bike is Possessed

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