Worn Cam?

FE350 said:

Have you ever tried Mongoose Machine in Poco? You are in Vancouver correct? I have been using them for 30 plus years and always good service. Also thinking that piston?? I never use any piston that has damage or welded debris on it lol, Want another score in the new liner that would be the way unless you machine it to spec

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Yeah I'm close to Mongoose and talked to them about getting the liner done. It sounds like they are the only shop in Western Canada that does plating. I understand they are very good but they seem to have a monopoly on bike stuff so the pricing is a little steep (or so I hear). The replating will be $325 plus tax and getting a new liner from Munn would be $325 and probably no tax (you know how the border is).

I dropped off the rotating assembly and head off at a machinist and he's going to mic everything and check the piston for ovalling, damaged ring gaps etc. He'll inspect the conn rod bearings too (seemed good to me, but what do I know) along with valve guides and seats etc. For the small amount of money it will cost to have him to it, I should end up with a good idea of where things are. What will take a pro an hour would take me a week (and wouldn't be done very well).

BTW, Munn racing is having an Easter sale, 25% off.

Taffy said:

use that piston again. it'll be OK. good infact.

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Taffy, I don't know why you have a bee in your bonnet? I was making a point that the piston is pooched. This is fact and any reputable machinist will state the same. I hold a qualification as a machinist as well a automotive technician. This piston is worn. Unless somehow you find a way to build it up and then machine it down. any piston with any imperfection can impose a risk of failure and that is textbook. Even sanding this piston down and cleaning it will still be out of spec and could create a further issue in the new barrel. If you look at your posts you will see the first post you said it was done. then a few posts latter you tell him to use it. Which is it?? talk about confusing. Anyone with any sense or skill will understand the basics of worn parts.

Just because their is other skilled people on this forum it seems to get you in a mood. You are not the only experienced rider, technician and or shop owner. None of us are perfect or claim to be. So maybe get off your high horse as some of your advise shows that you are not that skilled in some areas and others can offer help.

I have been given limited access to this site and I have a funny feeling it stems from your pride. If I offended I am sorry, But I do have a right to give experienced advise as well try to help fellow riders. I am not selling, or advertising or have anything to gain. I am non bias but have skill to offer free of charge and I thought this is what Forums are all about.

before I saw the piston on both sides I thought it had to be toast. when he put up a photo of each side (very good quality photos BTW) I realised that there isn't much wear in the piston. you can see the machining lines right down into the base of the skirt.

he has said he is on a budget and I think he can use the opiston again, I appreciate that new is perfect and easy to recommend, anyone can see 'new', but choosing when something has had it is a tough call.

you've actually had about 6 goes at me in the above post ayou've accused me of doing something I have no control over.

I don't have a bee in my bonnet, you basically said that he'd put it back together with a chip of metal sticking out and I said he isn't that stupid. so don't be PEDANTIC.

in the suspension thread you said we didn't have his bike and couldn't say even though I'd ridden the very same model, now you reckon here , that we ought to know this or that? at least I'd ridden the same bike the guy rode and I strip and repair these engines all the time.

I can back up what I say - and so far you haven't. another armchair pundit.

regards

Taffy

FE350 said:

I have been given limited access to this site and I have a funny feeling it stems from your pride.

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fwiw this was a coincidence! technical forum glitch!

Im having the same problem only when mi log in though works ok to browse forums not login

Taffy said:

before I saw the piston on both sides I thought it had to be toast. when he put up a photo of each side (very good quality photos BTW) I realised that there isn't much wear in the piston. you can see the machining lines right down into the base of the skirt.

he has said he is on a budget and I think he can use the opiston again, I appreciate that new is perfect and easy to recommend, anyone can see 'new', but choosing when something has had it is a tough call.

you've actually had about 6 goes at me in the above post ayou've accused me of doing something I have no control over.

I don't have a bee in my bonnet, you basically said that he'd put it back together with a chip of metal sticking out and I said he isn't that stupid. so don't be PEDANTIC.

in the suspension thread you said we didn't have his bike and couldn't say even though I'd ridden the very same model, now you reckon here , that we ought to know this or that? at least I'd ridden the same bike the guy rode and I strip and repair these engines all the time.

I can back up what I say - and so far you haven't. another armchair pundit.

regards

Taffy

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I as noted prior. I am not one to give advise to someone based on how I ride and or condone a inexperienced rider to change rake and or trail on a bike. I have seen riders make changes based on what they read. I have had these bikes come into my shop messed up. As I noted prior. Ride the bike and find the problem, then ask for advise on how to correct the bugs. A stock bike from factory is set to standards based on safety and designed by an engineer. Yes it can be tweeked to give better performance but unless it has an issue or is broken their is no need to fix. These are things we learn when were more experienced.

As for the piston.. Budget or no budget it is not advisable to use anything that has been compromised. Your advise on the cam was just as bad as the piston. Out of tolerance piston will slap and this is not good at all. A cam that is pitted and damaged will wear new parts pre maturely. Once again this is textbook to anyone who is qualified and certified as a technician.

As for backing up what I say. I don't need to solicit business on a public forum to ensure my business is successful. I back up my qualifications with all my customers who have access to see my many certifications and degrees that are placed on my business wall. Oh and BTW I instructed Automotive and engine building at a University level so I think I am more than qualified to give some advise to help others out.

Just because I have not been on this forum for years and had the chance to give advise as you have does not mean I am not qualified. I don't question your advise I give my own opinion and that is a right I have. The readers can listen to who they choose, my advise has in no way been anything but accurate and helpful. I have offered to give parts to readers not sell. So I don't think my intentions here are anything but good.

If you don't like my advise then don't read it. I never commented once on yours or told anyone otherwise, I never quoted you prior your little pissyness on the suspension info I gave, just gave my own input and it is you who does not like this and only you.

You seem to think your an authority or almighty and when anyone gives advise outside what you say is wrong. "another armchair pundit" It isn't me who has been giving advise for years now is it? I never meant any of my comments as direct hits to you, I just gave advise based on what I have learnt and taught and nothing more.

I am sorry about the comment about the glitch, but I seemed kinda funny that I receive pm's from others telling me that some get sick of Taffy and don't like him here and right on to the advise on the cam and piston I gave. All of a sudden I am restricted from the posts and see Taffy is pissed at me. So I guess you didn't have anything to do with the glitch but you sure do have a bee in your bonnet as it shows clearly.

So summing this up. If you see me post or give advise and it is different on what you say or you don't like it. Don't take it as a hit on you directly as it is not. I don't have anything to prove to you and or care what you think. I do however care about new riders and want to see everyone who rides enjoys the sport and will help any way I can. If I give advise and it is based on personal preference than you will see me say that.

Regards

KentJ said:

Yeah I'm close to Mongoose and talked to them about getting the liner done. It sounds like they are the only shop in Western Canada that does plating. I understand they are very good but they seem to have a monopoly on bike stuff so the pricing is a little steep (or so I hear). The replating will be $325 plus tax and getting a new liner from Munn would be $325 and probably no tax (you know how the border is).

I dropped off the rotating assembly and head off at a machinist and he's going to mic everything and check the piston for ovalling, damaged ring gaps etc. He'll inspect the conn rod bearings too (seemed good to me, but what do I know) along with valve guides and seats etc. For the small amount of money it will cost to have him to it, I should end up with a good idea of where things are. What will take a pro an hour would take me a week (and wouldn't be done very well).

BTW, Munn racing is having an Easter sale, 25% off.

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Right on, I do think that was a smart call. As for Mongoose. They do seem to have this monopoly now as they were the only ones who managed to stay in business and their work shows nothing but quality in my opinion. I have not been their in five years though so who knows now. I do know they are the recluse dist. for us over here as I was looking into one last year. Dave at Gnarley has been really good to me and has sourced OE stuff that the dealer had no access, so I use him allot as I don't like the boarder, exchange and wait times.

FE350 said:

I receive pm's from others telling me that some get sick of Taffy and don't like him here and right on to the advise on the cam and piston I gave.

Regards

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well wasn't me Mr Fe350 and since apparently im the only one here who doesn't understand the logic behind the bemusing cantankerous bumbling of the oracle i say you have once again made it all up you lying idiot troll

FWIW

I appreciate all opinions given on forums even if it may not appear so or if I don't understand the logic or mechanical in-competence behind some of them as they are always a very interesting insight in to the way ones (or twos :giggle: ) brain processes technical written and pictorial information.

Kent J thank you for this thread and putting up the pictures .. all very much appreciated.. enjoy the rest of the weekend and keep em coming please

Het Bushy,

I know I can sometimes not see the good side of the bad and my brain does not see the common element of the good in the bad and so forth once over again.

I am willing to stand up to you policy and will give a full refund for the info I have supplied. However,,,,, Shipping and handling will not be refunded.

LMAO

With the head and the crank at the machine shop, I didn't even look at the bike this weekend. But, with our annual "Guys Dirtbike Weekend" approaching in just 42 days I figure I better get moving on the rest of the project. If I go to this event without a motorcycle I'll likely damage my liver through excess consumption, and might even be forced into cooking and cleaning for the group...

I can't find any other significant damage inside the engine so I'm hoping that the metal was all coming from the ring and liner.

The main bearings look OK to me but I suppose I should replace them anyways. Thoughts? (SKF 206EC/VC025)


Right Crank:


Left Crank:


A number of transmission gears have some wear marks on the sides of the teeth. I'm not sure if that means the gears are being improperly side loaded or if that's just typical wear that happens when shifting. I don't see any pitting on the gears.

Crankshaft : CYL.ROLLER BEAR.NJ206 ET2XCS46
50330082000

I have parts list questions:

What bearing can be used for the connecting rod (big end)? Mine seemed OK so I'm not buying a whole conn rod (unless the machinist says it's needed). Is there a KTM part that works? If the axial/radial play is OK should I just leave it?

How about a cam chain? The OEM DID is quite cheap at $23 USD, but I understand it only comes with a rivet link. Where can I get a master link chain in North America?

My piston is with the machinist too, but if he says to replace it I'm looking at this Wossner Piston:Wossner Piston
Is that a good choice?

I'm still on the fence as to whether I should just replace the liner and rings (piston too if the machinist says so) or replace all bearings since I have it apart. Given that I typically never ride between November and March, I don't mind postponing a major overhaul till the off season...

Thanks for the help.

Hey, for what it's worth, I am going to replace only the necessary items and leave the overhaul till next winter. It's time to get riding man.

From all the info I have gathered, it isn't usually an option to replace just the bearing on the conrod (on the big end). See, the needle bearing in the big end uses the rod itself as an outer race and the gudgeon pin and the inner... so essentially, these items bearing just as much as the bearing itself hence the need to replace the entire rod.

I find this very silly... they should be able to install some sort of outer race (maybe a press-fit bearing) to save the rod big end (then to repair the conrod, all you need is a new bearing and a new bushing). This isn't the case.

The little end is a plain bearing (looks like a simply bushing). Plain bearing is a cylindrical face that operates using oil as a film.

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Cam chain. I bought the OEM. It is pretty good, and quite affordable, but the rivet thing is a pain. I have a tool for a bicycle chain that will work (tested it last night). The local robbers / dealer want $20 to rivet the chain with their tool. The tool itself only costs $50 or so.

If I were to do it again, I would likely buy an IWIS chain with a masterlink clip.

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Be careful with that piston. If you haven't done so already, educate yourself on the difference between "stage" 1 and 2 pistons from Husaberg. Stage 1 is the normal, stock size. Stage 2 is the slightly larger size for when you have a worn cylinder, etc.

Bushie will hopefully Chime in with the proper dimensions, but that Wossner piston may be too large in diameter to work nicely with a new cylinder. I am not 100% on this, but keep it in mind.

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I'm sourcing some bearings from the local bearing supplier. I will post my results when I figure it out. Might be possible that the bearings can be found from a supplier such and Canadian Bearings cheaper than from a dealer. I am sure KTM marks up the price when the re-sell them from SKF, NTN, and so on.

My thinking was I could service the conn rod bearing now and save the rod, but I understand that the rod ID IS the race, so you really can't replace them seperately.

I know there is some discussion of using different rods etc, but I'm not the right guy to be experimenting with different engine configurations.

The Wossner is for a bore size of 100.01 mm and the stage 1 liner is spec'd at 100.000 - 100.012 mm. In would appreciate some insight from the experts as to what would fit properly.

My plan was to purchase a new liner from Husbaerg, but I just got an email from my local dealer indicating that the liner (81530005000), cam (80036010000) and cam chain (80036013100) are not available. ****...

I will try Munn racing to see if they can find them. Otherwise I'll have to get the liner repaired, and I know Taffy has chains and a used cam I can get. It does concern me though that integral parts are not available any more. At this stage it makes be wonder if I should cut my losses or keep going...

Keep going. That dealer just doesn't have the reach. Those parts are still available from dealers around here. Munn will have it too.

This from Chip @ Munn just now:

Conn Rod – 80030015000 –no longer available
Cylinder Liner – 81530005000 – 4 weeks out
Cam Chain – 80036013100 – 4 weeks
Cam – 80036010000 – 4 weeks

ugh...

Well I can re-use that cam or pick up a used one. It will probably take 3-4 weeks to get the cylinder replated. Cam chain is dissapointing though.

What about a KTM RFS swap??

Seriously... that sucks. See if Taffy will help you out. He is reasonable with pricing and understands that we are getting pinched with the exchange rate.

I have a rod kit, a new liner, a new cam in stock. cam chain as well obviously.

the last con rod right? wow! I got mine this week but that won't last long will it? you see, that 10 year rule again! the liners have to be available for another three years but the rods are 11 years old now and they have stopped them. it isn't going to be pretty in 36 months time is it?

I do a HC 550 piston that takes it to 12.5 instead of the 11 to 1. still very sensible.

as for the rod, you rather miss the point. the rollers themselves are rubbing on two surfaces and it is the bearing that wears. not the inside of the rod and not the pin. you take a pin and bearing and leave it to the expert but usually the pin can be left in and just replace the bearing. with no slop the damage can't start. it's slop that starts the viscous circle.

I also do a stronger little end bush than the original. but it must be fitted while the rod is off the crank.

regards

Taffy

Taffy said:

as for the rod, you rather miss the point. the rollers themselves are rubbing on two surfaces and it is the bearing that wears. not the inside of the rod and not the pin. you take a pin and bearing and leave it to the expert but usually the pin can be left in and just replace the bearing. with no slop the damage can't start. it's slop that starts the viscous circle.

regards

Taffy

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Do you sell just the bearing?

what do you think!

just go to the web shop and just enter the words that you are thinking and it knows....

Taffy