Why is my K/starter grabbing as I start the kick? Seal leak?

Scully · Jun 27, 2004

My kick starter lever is starting to "grab" as I go to kick it sometimes? It feels like it has got hold of something with teeth on it? What I then do (when using the k/starter, which is not often)is hit the button for a split second, and then it drops a "tad" enough to let me kick it? Does this sound like trouble???????????????
And fair dinkum I am sick to death replacing the F**king kick start seal!!
I have done it 5 times in a year? And this time out I tried an o'ring, and half way thru the ride(50kms) its bloody leaking AGAIN? What can I do to cure this???????????????????? And what causes this??
Last week I tok the liberty of ordering another 2 seals(a/market) just in case it leaked AGAIN, and if so I was going to try fitting and O'ring in behind the seal aswell? Or should I take the cover off and have the seal diametre milled out to accomodate a larger seal?? What are the thoughts here people????????????????????
I do hope this kicker thing aint to bad a prob?
Thanks,

twistthethrottle · Jun 27, 2004

Hi Dale,
One possibility for the grab on the kick starter is the decomp mechanism.
Check that it is adjusted per the manual.
Hopefully you will find it doesn't have the correct amount of play.

If it is set correctly, I would still adjust the cable to increase the play by 1mm or so to see if it reduces the grab problem. The lever on the end of the decomp shaft does get fairly beaten up over time, it can usually be fixed with a file or a bit of light grinding.

In regard to your kick start seal, I haven't heard of anyone having that much trouble. Looking at the parts manual, I can't see how the kick start shaft is supported where it passes through the side cover, is there a bush pressed into the side cover? I would be checking for excessive lateral movement of the shaft where it passes through the cover or possibly damage to the kick start shaft that is eating the seals.

Scully · Jun 27, 2004

?

Brian, thanks for that. The lever you are talking about that can be fixed with a file? Where is it, and how do I fix it? This has only just started to happen.
I will check the k/starter shaft for any burrs etc.

twistthethrottle · Jun 27, 2004

Unfortunately its behind the side cover. The clutch and kick start shaft have to be removed to get to it.
The lobe is on the end of the shaft that operates the decomp cable.

If it grabs bad enough the shaft gets bent slightly and because its hardened can crack.

Of course I could be totally wrong but it sounds similar to a problem I had a while ago. Definitely check the adjustment of the cable first, being too tight can cause a similar symptom.

While at TDC I think the workshop manual says the decomp arm at the head should have 2mm +1mm free movement, try adjusting the cable for 3mm. Too much tension on the decomp cable will reduce the life of the lobe on the kick start mechanism.

I hope this helps.

Scully · Jun 28, 2004

Brian

After a better inspection tonight(after a wash) I operated the k/start by hand and it definately feels like it "grabs" on something and is very hard to push down even with the decomp lever pulled in?? It also grabs then lets go sometimes? If you press the button for an instant it is fine again? Is this what yours did?????
I will try the 3mm first before I pull the clutch cover off AGAIN? But I have a bad feeling about this? More filing, it seems there is nothing on a Berg that cant be fixed with a single cut??
See ya,

Scully · Jun 28, 2004

Brian

I've just had a thought? If I pull the manual decomp in, then engage the k/starter and it still feels like it grabs on something? Its not the cable free play is it????????
So this would mean that there is possibly something else wrong??
What do you think Brian?
Dale

BundyBear · Jun 28, 2004

Scully
Do you have much radial play in the k-starter shaft or are the shaft bearing bore and seal bore not concentric? Either way the seal arrangement will not cope with the misalignment and will occasionally fail to contact the shaft all the way around. This would not damage the seal (how to the ones you've pulled out look?) & replacing it would not fix the problem. Sorry if you've already checked this.

Scully · Jun 29, 2004

Brad

Thanks for the advice Brad, the seals are hard to get out so once you do they look abit second hand so I cant really say for certain whether they are stuffed or not? The k/starter seems to have less free play than the gear shifter so I hope that is ok??????????? I have replaced that one also.
I fitted a larger o'ring tonight that had to be forced in so I will fill her up with oil AGAIN tomorrow and see what happens this time???
The grabbing kicker is very annoying tho? It seems to grab way to high in the stroke(12 o'clock) instead of lower down, but,,,,,not all the time? And sometimes if you are careful it "just" grabs and let goes again but you can feel it trying to get a hold?????????????????? Buggered if I know?
Sounds like one for Dale L?

LINEAWEAVER · Jun 29, 2004

Hi Scully,

As the kickstop plastic plug (mounted outside on the clutch cover) wears people have a tendency to rotate the kickstart lever counter clockwise on the shaft splines in order to maintain tension on the kickstart lever while folded. This causes the kickstart mechanism to engage early in the stroke.

When locked up:
Often the ratchet engagement key will get caught between detents in the kickstart gearwheel. When firm pressure is applied and / or the E start is activated the engagement key will fall into a detent. A burred and / or flat engagement key / gearwheel detent will aggravate this situation as will a loaded kickstart lever. (see paragraph one)

A worn clutch cover kickstart shaft bushing coupled with a loaded kickstart lever (see paragraph one) will certainly cause an oil leak.

Hope this helps.
Best Regards,
Dale

Scully · Jun 29, 2004

Dale

Dale I think you have "nailed" it!!!!!
I definately have the k/starter turned c/wise to counteract the worn nylon plug, and maybe the bush is shagged to.
Go to the top of the class!!!

eon · Jun 30, 2004

G'day Scully, cold enough for ya? (I escaped the Isle about 25years ago). That seal started leaking pretty quickly on my 02 501, I got sent an O ring which really confused me so I just pulled off the the KS and slid it on, hasn't leaked in 2 years.

Ian

Scully · Jun 30, 2004

seal

I replaced the seal with another o'ring last night which is larger and had to be forced in with some o'ring grease and it seems to have stopped the leak?? I hope? I also moved the k/starter back to the "proper" position, but it still "grabs"?? I dont actually use it much these days, only when cold.
And yes it is very cold here at the moment, had to pour water on the windscreens to come to work? I think it was 1 degree today. At least it doesnt get to hot for riding?except in Summer.
I need to use the kicker when cold because if you hit the button it just spins and only turns the motor over with the kicker when cold. When it heats up its ok?? But that ANOTHER problem??????????????????

eon · Jul 1, 2004

Yeah Scully, my starter just spins too when cold, my cold starting procedure requires a tree to lean up against with the handlebar so I can get a good kick, I used to use the sidestand but ...snap.The dealer reckons it's the type of oil causing the spin - Shell VSX, he suggested Motul 5100 but I buy 20 L of Shell for around $140 from the depot.

Ian

twistthethrottle · Jul 1, 2004

I use Motul 5100 and mine will just spin when cold. The sprague clutch is only about 6 months old.
No problems at all once warm.

That's a restarter for you.

Scully · Jul 1, 2004

Re-starter

A re-starter??
This is what the dealer told me to, it's abit of a cop out!

twistthethrottle · Jul 2, 2004

Re-starter is Swedish for "too small"

44014 · Jul 2, 2004

gees i have been looking into getting a 04 550 to upgrade from my 99 fe600 but the way every one talkes about them is they have alot of problems my berger has never stopped on me and has never not started the only thing i have replaced on my bike is a battery <bloody thing only lasted 5 years > correct me if im wrong but is this the case with the newer bergs ...?

twistthethrottle · Jul 3, 2004

Don't worry 44014 on the 04 they fitted a better battery, modified the decom and fitted the Kokasan ignition. All dramatically improve starting. The 550 and 650 also have a new, larger starter motor.

Place your order!

Scully · Jul 11, 2004

kicker starter and "sprague cluthes"

So after another ride today, I'm sick to death of this kick starter problem and this s/clutch thing free spinning?
So what is the answer???????????????????????? Will the s/clutch only last six months If I replace it?? Or is there another "cheaper" cruder way to fix it????
I think I will have to pull it apart this week as it is getting so hard to k/start when cold because I cant get a decent purchase to kick? Its either to high or to low to give it a good kick?
The other problem is; how to see what is happening with the s/clutch once it is disasembled? You cant really operate it can you?
What are other people's experiences with this s/clutch ??????????
I know, "so many questions"???
I tell you what; I would really miss this site if I bought a KTM or DRZ!!
After I fix this, what else could possibly go wrong??????????????????

Scully · Jul 11, 2004

Ok this morning I pulled the clutch cover off (and took a photo of the cogs and dots "line up", so I will post them soon, so everyone can see)and once I removed the clutch, I removed the kick starter mechanism and it was very obvious what is wrong! The kick starter cog has been rubbing on two screws that hold this plate in? The two screws were very loose and have NO heads left at all, and the k/starter cog has been "binding" and dropping metal in the oil. .
What does this piece of metal actually do?It also has a decent dent in it to?
And I'm not to sure which way the spring goes back in?
Can anyone help???

Why is my K/starter grabbing as I start the kick? Seal leak?

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