Engine rattle

aardvark · Jan 5, 2013

I have a 2005 FE450 that had the engine rebuilt by John (Orangeberg) a couple of years ago, after the bottom end let go. It has run perfectly since then, but has recently developed a bit of a rattle.

I change the oil (Delo 400) after every second ride.

I suspect the rattle is the timing chain (which has never been replaced), but was wondering if there is an easy way to tell?

DeeG · Jan 5, 2013

I would guess that your cam chain tensioner is going out. Take a look at DJH's videos. He gives good examples of good and bad sounds. I replaced my stock CCT with one of his manual adjusters. Nice and simple - nothing to fail.

http://www.djhcyclesport.com/

aardvark · Jan 5, 2013

Thanks for the link DeeG. Saved that one to my bookmarks.

I thought it might be a little easier to get a second opinion if I uploaded a video:

http://youtu.be/jOEmWwxPogI

Taffy · Jan 7, 2013

If it is cam chain the tensioner will be fully extended when you remove it. that isn't rocket science is it?

the tensioners don't fail on the pre 09s so forget the above advice.

suggest you try and remove the ignition cover and feel the crank by hand for clonking as well.

regards

Taffy

aardvark · Jan 7, 2013

Taffy said:
If it is cam chain the tensioner will be fully extended when you remove it. that isn't rocket science is it?

Thanks for the advice Taffy.

The tensioner is out about 18mm. It only had two clicks to go until it was fully extended. Nearly time for a new chain?

Taffy · Jan 7, 2013

but it is unlikely to be the reason for the rattle given that it has two clicks left?

regards

Taffy

aardvark · Jan 7, 2013

Taffy said:
but it is unlikely to be the reason for the rattle given that it has two clicks left?

I guess that's a fair point. Can I reset the tensioner and put it back in, or does it need to go back in the way it came out?

I'll pull the side cover off tonight. I'll be disappointed if the rattle is coming from the bottom end. It cost me enough at the last rebuild.

Taffy · Jan 8, 2013

just set it back to zero and fit it. then rock the engine a couple of times for an extra click or two but it is really unnecessary as the chain is always good and tight while there are clicks left.

have a look at the nut on the end of the crank, two things can happen: 1) the nut rattles loose and 2) the end of the crank snaps off.

the only other rattle I hear (that I can think of right now) is the wrong sprague assembly in the engine. the easy way to test this is to remove the two starter gears and close it up. do a kickstart and find out?

regards

Taffy

aardvark · Jan 8, 2013

Taffy said:
just set it back to zero and fit it.

Removing the tensioner without first removing the exhaust was hard. Putting the bloody thing back in was a nightmare!! Sometimes what seems like the easy option, isn't.

Taffy said:
have a look at the nut on the end of the crank

I removed the ignition cover tonight. Everything in there is rock solid! The nut is secure and I can't feel or hear any play in it.

Taffy said:
the wrong sprague assembly in the engine.

I actually have no idea what that is.

Taffy said:
the easy way to test this is to remove the two starter gears and close it up.

And I have no idea where or how to start doing this. Any pointers? Or, if I'm asking for help, am I out of my depth?

Taffy · Jan 8, 2013

I meant the left hand end of the crank.

If you can't find two gears in the sidecover (left again to be clear) that turn between the starter motor and the clutch then you do indeed need a lot of help!

regards

Taffy

aardvark · Jan 9, 2013

Taffy said:
I meant the left hand end of the crank.

I knew that. I was just, ummmm.... testing you. Yeah, that's it.

So, I got home from work tonight and went to pull the side cover off. Then I realised I had to take the exhaust off to do it, and decided I wasn't going to do that at 11:30 at night. It can wait until tomorrow.

In the mean time, I took the clutch cover off. There is considerable play between the clutch basket and the clutch, enough to make it knock when rocking the clutch back and forwards by hand. However, I assume that since the clutch only rotates one way (and presses against the notches in the basket whilst spinning), that it is unlikely to be the cause?

Taffy · Jan 9, 2013

it could be it? if you were to set the tickover (idle) higher and it disappeared then you'd be going from zero to hero..... :lol: :lol:

regards

Taffy

aardvark · Jan 9, 2013

Taffy said:
if you were to set the tickover (idle) higher and it disappeared then you'd be going from zero to hero.....

Wouldn't twisting the throttle be the same thing?

aardvark · Jan 10, 2013

I don't have a tool to remove the cir-clip holding the water pump in. So it's going to have to wait until tomorrow.

This is the noise from the clutch I was talking about. It's a bit quiet, so you may need to turn the volume up.

http://youtu.be/T5F-DDrmvy4

aardvark · Jan 11, 2013

On removing the side cover, here's what I found...

http://youtu.be/6k9lDPb2jRw

The video stopped before I got to the crank, but that is as solid as a rock. I can't feel any movement in it by hand, and it makes no knocking sound, even when hitting it with a rubber mallet. I even tried grabbing it by standing on the other side of the bike and leaning over to get a bit more leverage. I can't feel any movement.

I assume the bits that are slightly loose in the video are supposed to be that way?

Taffy, when you say to remove the gears either side of the starter, does that require removing the clutch? I'm man enough to admit I have neither the skills, facilities or tools to do that.

A couple of other things:
1) What model KTM is this the same as? I need to order a new gasket for this side as the old one tore a little bit when removing the side cover.
2) I was just reading the user doc about cam chains up to the 'o6 model. When reading it, it talked about small metal shavings in the oil. Whenever I do an oil change there are ALWAYS small filings on the sump plug.

Cheers,

Jason

aardvark · Jan 11, 2013

plumbbob · Jan 12, 2013

Hey aardvark
this model Berg motor isn't the same as any KTM engine, that has only happened this year, you will be able to get the gasket from any Berg or KTM dealer though.
The gears to the left of the starter, the first one will just pull out but the next one, the Sprague bearing, will need the clutch removing. Not as hard as it might look at first.

I had a bad rattle on my 650 a few years ago, turned out to be the gear on the left hand end of the crank (bottom one to the left of the clutch) had a tiny amount of free play but sounded like a bag of nails!
With the spark plug out turn the engine over with the clutch and watch/listen as it goes past top dead center for any knocks or movement.

Carl

aardvark · Jan 12, 2013

plumbbob said:
I had a bad rattle on my 650 a few years ago, turned out to be the gear on the left hand end of the crank (bottom one to the left of the clutch) had a tiny amount of free play but sounded like a bag of nails! l

Thanks for the info Carl. The crank nut and gear are solid. I can't feel any play in them at all.

The only two places I can feel that are loose are the bits located in green...... those two gears, and a bit of play between the clutch plates and the locator bits of the basket.

I'll take the spark plug out and see how it sounds in the morning.

plumbbob · Jan 12, 2013

All the movement you're describing sounds normal aardvark, the clutch plates will have a bit of free play and the other two will have a bit of movement as they're only being held by one bearing with the casing off.

Good luck,

Carl

aardvark · Jan 12, 2013

plumbbob said:
All the movement you're describing sounds normal aardvark, the clutch plates will have a bit of free play and the other two will have a bit of movement as they're only being held by one bearing with the casing off.

Good luck,

Carl

Yeah, I didn't think the "loose" bits seemed abnormal.

Maybe I'm just being paranoid about the rattle? Mind you, those metal filings must have come from somewhere!

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