crankcase heights

have they ever had the piston reach the deck level?

according to cookeye and popup the rod got beefier between '01 and '03 but it wasn't until '06 with the 630 engine that they lengthened the rod? correct?

i've just updated the opening chapter "year recognition" with technical changes which i don't normally do but it seems the logical place to do it.

i'm sorry if i smile here, and i shall ask simon to defend all 650 tuners to the end here, but: what is the measured compression of a 650? i mean there are all these people who wanted an SM section and here i am what, 24 months later trying to help a section that doesn't much interest me sort out whether the compression is 5 to 1 or if it's 10 to 1. but it won't be 12.5 to 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now will it!

so has there ever been a taller piston, has the piston ever reached the top? if only one good dealer was into helping us with this! we're getting phuqall now dale has moved on.

regards

Taffy

simon

what i meant was from gudgeon pin to squish area. in other words dragging the piston up 2mm in the bore to get it to level with the top of the barrel! at the moment i reckon there is a 5mm squish band because i see popups photo (it is worth looking at!) of 3mm below the deck height (deck height is the barrel and nothing to do with the piston) then if you observe my notes in tuning you'll see that i measured the BV head as being 1,8mm deeper and then add to that the cylinder head gasklet of what 3mm? so that's 7.8mm between piston and head and on my 400 it's 1mm. the correct distance.

this was why i asked you if you had actually physically measuered the compression simon!

if you don't have a squish it screws with ignition timing and compression.

there is no point in having a taller piston (my original question) in any circumstances when the real answer is that you need a con rod at least 5mm longer!

correct me if i'm wrong here but there must be room for a 140-142mm rod in there!

JBS/ben ballard did a longer rod for the 32mm b/e that he started with. that came from japan as i recall. i wonder how close to 140mm that was.

i'm a bit pissed to be honest because the 650 isn't my engine and as soon as i go look at it i find real numpty type mistalkes and it's as though everyone has been asleep.

regards

Taffy

so next time some arsehole comes on the forum and says "what do i do to tune my 650?" i think we ought to just say: "buy a 140mm rod is your first priority.

i can't believe that you can get even 9:1 compression like this?

for instance: does the dished piston have the same height to the outter edge as the previous (and 3mm short) 'flat' piston? i deduce from your preevious post that it is the same becasue there's no other way that the compression ratio could have gone down if it wasn't.

i'm not taking the blame simon for putting 103mm and 131mm for rod lengths. we have enough dealers and tuners and racers come here to help if they wanted to so on the one hand no one reads the doc and two they don't give a shyte!

with the exception of lineaweaver, 50% of this site come from the USA and ought to get off their big fat arses!!!!!!!

i was double guessing originally that the 1mm extra on the rod came in '05 and the new 628 engine. now tell me how, with 1mm less throw, they managed to keep the compression up? i'll check back for anyone else bar ausberg who told me that it was '03 simon and you'd better not be wrong you naughty boy or i'll be angry!!!!

anyway, you know i'm thick skinned and i do have to be told several times!

sometime soon i'm going to write down all the changes in chronological order as a precursor to the doc and then it might be sorted.

regards

Taffy

well i think people like ben ballard come on here and gave away more than 9/10ths of this site know in simple engineering effort. if i did agree with you about the secrets of race tuning i'll say it to their phuqing faces that they ahd better think again if they think they know anything i don't and dale has forgotten.

there are no secrets to tuning just secret phone numbers. i've said it before and i'll say it again and again the only thing i ever wanbted when i road raced WASN'T a works F2 ducati: it was tony rutter's phone book!!!!!!!!!

they're just small minded egotists and deserve to be down at the back of the field where they are. the other people who say bugger all are the dealers who, even in the uk, i can pull apart with EASE. it's like teasing a 4-year-old boy! they say nothing because they want to tell their ******** customers to buy the very bling we can't stop them buying.

we haven't let the sad septics win here when they arrive with their honda APJ diaphrams etc etc. at TT despite building the site from nothing with JD, in the end we just could not stop the idiots from taking over the asylum. and in the end we all have to get out of asylums any way we can.

i wish i had a customer who gave me the money, based on what i'm reading here i could build a 644cc with 75hp no problem!

as you know, dale has had 46.6bhp from a 400DT and i had 38bhp 2 years ago and 3 tests ago on knobblies! i still have the standard exhaust, piston and compression as well as undersized valves. so i don't even see that figure as a problem. mind you i couldn't get there without dale's advice and i think that goes for us all here. if the factories men do read this then i'd just like to point out that you did phuq all to help!!!!!!!!!!!!

regards

Taffy

here is a quote from ben after he'd produced his 105mm piston and domed it. :

5) Piston on Rod - a total of 12.5mm taller than stock. Compression difference 23.2mm - 28.9mm = 5.5mm + 5mm Long-rod + 2mm Rad increase on stroke (86mm up from 82mm).

i.e. the crank throw was 2mm higher, the con rod is 5mm longer at 140mm and the piston is 5.5mm taller.

so ben does use a 140mm rod. also in an open post in an old thread he mentions to me that he can get a con rod custom made at nearly the price of OEM husey stuff and if i'd bought two then they would work out at cheaper per unit than OEM!!!!

regards

Taffy

well as much as i feel like we're all over the show, it is grabbing my interest. it's enjoyable almost. just get the feeling that someone out there is ging to say at the end: oooeer! can i help, i've a factory spec sheet here, if only i'd known i could have saved you so much time!

anyway, i don't want to say who said this:

"The longer conrod in 03 you've had from several sources now, pretty much all of those are from people who have really had these engines apart and worked on them, I think it's time to believe them"
but it is going up on the wall!

read my lips. no. new. taxes!!!!!!!

so let me see if i'm getting there!

the 450 cases are approximately 4.5mm lower than the 400. but if they ever got a taller 100mm piston we can reduce that! the rod length is 117mm and stroke is 57mm.

the 400 and 470 share the next case up and a 120mm rod, 60.1mm stroke.

the 501 and 550 have the 123/124 rod which in an old thread dale changed around from 123/124/123 in the doc to the opposite so believe what you like there. the stroke is 70.2 (i'm at work but it's in the doc) making the throw 5.1mm longer annd added to the rod makes the cases maybe 8 or 9mm taller than the 400.

then we have the 650! weed has a 1mm longer rod from 134 to 135 and his bike was an '02? in '03 ausberg has a 134mm rod so does that mean weed was shipped a later rod accidentally and thank goodness it fits etc etc.

same year, simon has an '03 with a 140mm rod but if he goes back to his '01 then the rod is just 3mm shorter making it a 137mm rod?

over on one of the other threads i started on 'big end' or piston etc: someone posted that in a certain year, their piston grew 3mm in height.

i'm off back to work now but later i'll look the year of that up and i think we can start to tie some loose ends up.

regards

Taffy

i'm glad you edited that ausberg or i'd have had to have said it. damn!

just to remind you from the doc that a headgasket is about 46 thou which is 1.15mm and as i've said the squish on the BV head is some 1.8mm recessed. so a piston could afford to be nearly 1.5mm proud of the deck height.

do i recall that lineaweaver insists on his headgaskets being 1-2mm larger thanb the bore. oh dear! i think we just confirmed a little of DL's tuning methodology!

question: did they ever make taller and heavier pistons by say 3mm. i'm sure that i've read this week that someone placed one 100mm against another and there was a huge height difference.

we still don't know how that 628 gets it's compression either....

regards

Taffy

http://www.husaberg.org/index.php?name= ... hth+height

http://www.husaberg.org/index.php?name= ... hth+height

http://www.husaberg.org/index.php?name= ... hth+height

the above three add little bits to the story but the best is the first and as usual it's from dale.

it appears the 501 and 550 shared the same cases but different heads during 2001 and 2002. that i guess is the SV head for the 501 which if i recall it did have for a while? the 650 had different cases. in 2003 - the 501s last year: the 501, 550 shared the same heads but the 550 got the 650s cases! the 550 at this point lost 1mm on the rod and compression went down all for the cause of production costs!

from what i can make out, in '03 the 650 got a 1mm longer rod and should have gone 134 to 135 but simon needs to help and explain how a 140 got in there unless of course as i've said: with 7-8mm squish there was easily room for a 5mm longer rod. just can't understand how si gets special treatment??????????

'04 the 650 got metal caged b/e bearing as well as the concave piston that was still the same height as a flat topped piston - i beleive? confirm this si? surely the cases were at least altered for the kokusan ignition to fit?

in '05 the cases were changed and the new 628 came out with maybe a new rod? compression????

in '06 the 650 got the 35mm b/e.

it would be interesting si if you can tell us the deck height with a 140mm rod fitted? there is nothing wrong with a piston going 1.1mm over the deck height PLUS the 0.8mm into the actual head. that's nearly 2mm proud of the 'block'.

si measured hi piston deck height as minus 3.2mm and also weed did his too at 3mm BELOW the top of the block WITH a 135mm rod. this means that 3.2 below to 2mm over the top is the 5mm you're looking for for a hot rod!

stick a 470 piston that little lot and you've bought yourself a very quick bike!

while i'm here i spotted this from dale:

"In addition to using Titanium valves Husaberg has decreased the intake valve size from 37mm to that of 35mm in an effort to improve follower life. OEM camshafts 820.36.010.000 and H-200.342.08 share identical profiles. The later unit is shipped with a matched auto de-comp lever." what were these two cams? from the 450/550 but not the 650?

and are all valve sizes back to 35/30 nowadays? even in the 628? powercell noted at the time that the so-called ti valves had the same parts number as the katoom 450 stainless steel valves (LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

haven't seen anyone except takis go to the bother of Ti valves? has anyone else? and as i said at the time: unless you have softer springs you've lost half the advantage of lighter valves....

i have placed takis' valve weights in the doc and await maddel to upload the photos. you won't believe how light the Ti valves are! try half.

BTW i made my own Ti conrods in the late eighties....from memory i can tell you that Ti weighs 56% os steel for the same strength.

anyway, enough here to keep you lot going for a month!

regards

Taffy

cheers ausberg. the info on the '05 will be interesting.

also. work it out. if you put the SV head on the 628, you have lowered the head 1.8mm as previously discussed. and how much did the stroke drop? 2mm! so i'm guessing but i think the 628s got the SV head but with the old 35/27 now re-arranged to the same as katoom at 35/30.

this isn't unusual as i bought a ducati 480ss 10 years ago and the valves were tiny. it turned out that they were right across the range. the ones in my pantah (37.5 and 33.5) were now in the 900ss head! so this is very feasable!

regards

Taffy