Yikes! Front cog and countershaft destroyed!!!

I've got an 09 FE450 with 380 hours and about 7800 miles.

My countershaft sprocket and the countershaft itself both have their splines stripped! Found this out yesterday in taking the engine apart. This has happened in the past 3 weeks of riding.

What could have caused this? I can't imagine my 450 has enough power to strip sprockets.

Any ideas?

Thx

Tom

[attachment=0:3dtupnl0]stripped sprocket.jpg[/attachment:3dtupnl0][attachment=1:3dtupnl0]ruined countershaft.jpg[/attachment:3dtupnl0]

chain too tight? i've heard some guys keep it a bit looser than the recommended setting just to ensure there isn't too much strain on the shaft when the suspension is compressed. not sure if that's really needed, but just what i've heard.

How did you manage to get the bolt out of the shaft?
Looks like you have a fair bit of work ahead of you.
If you fix this yourself, it would be great if you could update this post with as much details as you can.
Regards,
Davo.

I understand that a few KTMs have had a similar problem, and its the same factory. Its been attributed to too hard aftermarket sprockets and perhaps marginal case hardening of the shafts. Then combined.

Bugger :cuss:

Thanks for the input guys.

Tight chain is an interesting idea. I've kept the chain in spec, but noticed last week that it seemed taut, tight when just sitting. I think I'll run it looser from now on.

I got the cog off. Since the countershaft just spins, I put the bike in gear so it was connected to the main shaft. I took off the clutch cover and clutch plates. Then threaded two of the bolts into the holes on the inner clutch basket. I used these as levers to keep the shafts from turning. A large breaker bar between the bolts gave me enough leverage against the bar on the sprocket nut to unscrew it. Didn't seem to hurt the bolts or clutch basket.

I haven't heard about countershaft issues, but both the countershaft and the sprocket were stripped. If only one were hard, then the other shouldn't be damaged (as much). But I'll talk to the KTM people.

Tom

I don't know about the chain being to tight, but I can tell you that I changed to a Dirt Tricks washer to stop the slop and play in the countershaft sprocket that keeps wiping out the seals. It seems to be working for the seals, maybe it could help with the shaft splines too to keep the countershaft sprocket tight.

Ah. That's a good thought. I've had to replace the countershaft oil seal every couple of months due to leakage. I had the cogs loosen if I didn't retighten them when hot.

SO> I took the engine apart. First time I've ever done this. Followed the Husaberg service manual. The countershaft was $60. But it cost another $200 to get the special tools to take the alternator off and separate the cases. The transmission, after 400 hours and 8000, looked brand new. No noticeable wear on any gears, bearings or shafts. I replaced the countershaft and reassembled the engine. Only difficult part is inserting new wrist pin circlips. I did not want to wait another 7-10 days to get the special tool. No retailer stocks those. They order them from their parts distributor, who orders one from KTM US, who orders it from KTM Austria, who then goes searching for iron ore to smelt........
Got the engine back in the bike today. It runs, but there is something off. Not sure what. More clanking than I remember from before. I may have gotten the timing chain 1 tooth off. I'll pull the valve cover tomorrow and see. Otherwise, it looks like a go. If I have to pull the engine out to fix something I screwed up, I'll post here.

Similar thing happened to my mates 570 after 12000ish k's, it seems everything holding the countershaft started to give way and made it loose, i believe he had allmost no slack in his chain ever so i think after that many k's something is bound to happen

Poor case hardening is definitely suspect and there have been a few cases of this, but a tight chain will certainly accelerate wear. The best thing to do on ANY bike (linkage or PDS), is to remove the shock and lift the swingarm/wheel assembly through its radial path and see where the tightest point in the chain is. At this point you should give yourself an extra little cushion of chain slack so ot cant bind up. I take a block of hard wood(old hammer handle) and cut it so that with the swingarm at the lowest positon I can wedge it under the chain against the front slider and tighten chain tension till its snug. That is your gauge so you dont have to remove the shock every time.

I can post pictures later..

Here is my standard chain blurb FWIW.

Chains wear and get longer as they do, and often wrongly referred to as stretch, which implies some form of elastic recovery, whatever.

A good wear indicator is pulling on the chain, away from the rear of the rear sprocket. If you expose a half tooth or so, it’s probably time to spend some $s

Chains can have tight spots, or parts that have worn less, but it can also be an out of round sprocket that is the problem. Adjust when tightest, but if the tight spot moves, its a sprocket problem.

Alternatively, or the same depending on your terminology and perception, a chain can have loose spots. They're usually from a link or more wearing more due to a loss of lubrication. These are the weak links that will encourage a chain to break when the pins wear/stress excessively.

Tensile strength is a chain spec, but not necessarily and indicator of life. Other steel properties like ductility and hardness are more relevant, and not readily quoted in specs.

Sealed, O ring type chains are not completely sealed. Chains wear firstly between the pins and bush, which is sealed by the O ring, but then the roller spins on the bush and it’s not sealed. The roller then contacts the sprocket and it’s obviously not sealed either.



When lubing a chain, lube it on the inside of the run aiming towards the side plates each side to encourage lube to get down between the roller and pin. Then lube is centrifuged out between the side plate and rollers, and then some gets into the roller bush area. Lubing on the outside means some lube gets between the roller and sprocket teeth and the rest gets flung off.

If you don’t over lube your chain, cleaning them is unnecessary.

And even if you think cleaning a chain is a good idea, more often than not, and depending on technique, it promotes wear by forcing crud down past the side plates and between the rollers and pin, and can damage the O rings too.

Changing out a counter shaft sprocket at least 3 times to a chain and rear sprocket is a cost effective way of increasing the total life. Cs sprockets wear faster because they have about 1/3 the number of teeth to deal with the same transmission loads as the rear sprocket. They are in effect the weakest link.

Use the biggest cs sprocket you can, more teeth and bigger diameter equals less wear.

Over tightening of chains is chronic in my experience. Regular tightening of your chain likely means you have it too tight to start with. An over tight chain wears it and the sprockets prematurely, and puts extra loads and therefore wear on the wheel bearings, countershaft and countershaft bearing, and compromises the rear suspension operation as the loads are transferred to the engine cases instead of the spring and damper.



Chain adjustment and tension is not dependant on load, just the geometry above. Chains should be adjusted when all 3 pivot points, ie the countershaft, swingarm pivot and rear axle are in line because that’s when the distance from the axle to the countershaft is greatest.

Modern chains rarely need adjusting. Once they do, its normally time to spend $s

does anyone make a little softer CSS that may be a little easier on the CS itself since this is a much easier item to replace? Or if you keep the chain in good working order is this even an issue to worry about?

If you run your Husaberg as a Super Moto with a lot of time on the pavement is this going to increase the drive train damage or is it still the same process, keep everything adjusted properly and in good working order?

Thanks for all the good information. :cheers:

Everything Steve says about chains is spot on - especially the line about using the largest front sprocket you can.

But there's another reason for doing this. Sprockets are neither round and nor are they constant velocity. As the sprocket rotates, each tooth must lift the chain slightly. The sprocket is, in effect, a polygon, not a circle. The effect is exacerbated the smaller the tooth count. When running, this all sets up shock loads in the drive train and is often witnessed as a whipping of the chain.

So use the largest combination of sprockets that you can to achieve the overall gearing you want.

Hi

That's the way to explain it Steve !!

Good job

:cheers:
ZAGA

bump.

chatted with a berg mechanic about all of this. yes the ktms and bergs can chew out the countershaft splines faster than most bikes, especially if used on road without a cush drive hub (a cush hub would still be good for dirt riding of course).

and if used at cruising speed a lot (e.g. adventure riding) as he reckons this allows the sprocket to move around a lot with chain lash. whereas with dirt riding it tends to be more lots of throttle on or engine braking so less wear.

one poor man's option he said to consider for a shaft starting to wear... put a few spot welds between the sprocket and shaft. possibly would need to drill out a bit to give the welds more purchase. of course if you wanted to do another sprocket you would need to grind off the welds to do a second sprocket. but you would probably only do this as a one-off, and probably worth considering getting the toughest (and largest) aftermarket sprocket possible to make it last!

i asked the mechanic how long to split the cases to do this kind of work and he said six hours. so the labour isn't all that expensive, it will probably be all the gaskets etc. as above, the shaft itself only cost $60 but of course while the bike is apart it's probably worth doing the big end, rings, piston etc an that's where the cost starts to skyrocket i guess....

have you got a ball park figure on the cost of all the parts you used, bikemechanic53?

hoosie5seventy said:

bump.

chatted with a berg mechanic about all of this. yes the ktms and bergs can chew out the countershaft splines faster than most bikes, especially if used on road without a cush drive hub (a cush hub would still be good for dirt riding of course).

Click to expand...

Did the Berg mechanic you talked to have a preference for what brand of counter shaft sprocket to use?

My $0.02 is go with the genuine article Davo, the 610 is kinda hard on the final drive and I have been replacing the front sprocket with alarming regularity (3rd one since the build) it would seem they are reasonably soft, I let the first one go too far, it work hardened and did truly shed all it's teeth at once :lol:

Davo said:

hoosie5seventy said:

bump.

chatted with a berg mechanic about all of this. yes the ktms and bergs can chew out the countershaft splines faster than most bikes, especially if used on road without a cush drive hub (a cush hub would still be good for dirt riding of course).

Click to expand...

Did the Berg mechanic you talked to have a preference for what brand of counter shaft sprocket to use?

Click to expand...

stock sprocket.

I self-deduced (no not self-deluded!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: ) as a wee lad that if I laid my chest on the seat and pressed with all my weight I could check the chain tension with my free arm. still works a treat. I go for about 15mm of flop at the tightest point.

Steve's advice is of course spot on with regards chain wear but the larger the 'countershaft' (what a phuqin stupid name) sprocket the bigger effect on handling - it pulls the swinger pivot down under acceleration.

this is why KTM (IMHO) went for 12/13/14 max on this model whereas the old bikes ran 13/14/15/16. this is all to do with anti-squat and selling more 'lil' sprockets of course!

and if you have a tall front you want a really big rear and that takes you to what 13/55? and then you wreck that chain protector under the rear of the arm...

donchya just love it!

regards

Taffy

steve said:

Here is my standard chain blurb FWIW.

Chains wear and get longer as they do, and often wrongly referred to as stretch, which implies some form of elastic recovery, whatever.

A good wear indicator is pulling on the chain, away from the rear of the rear sprocket. If you expose a half tooth or so, it’s probably time to spend some $s

Chains can have tight spots, or parts that have worn less, but it can also be an out of round sprocket that is the problem. Adjust when tightest, but if the tight spot moves, its a sprocket problem.

Alternatively, or the same depending on your terminology and perception, a chain can have loose spots. They're usually from a link or more wearing more due to a loss of lubrication. These are the weak links that will encourage a chain to break when the pins wear/stress excessively.

Tensile strength is a chain spec, but not necessarily and indicator of life. Other steel properties like ductility and hardness are more relevant, and not readily quoted in specs.

Sealed, O ring type chains are not completely sealed. Chains wear firstly between the pins and bush, which is sealed by the O ring, but then the roller spins on the bush and it’s not sealed. The roller then contacts the sprocket and it’s obviously not sealed either.

When lubing a chain, lube it on the inside of the run aiming towards the side plates each side to encourage lube to get down between the roller and pin. Then lube is centrifuged out between the side plate and rollers, and then some gets into the roller bush area. Lubing on the outside means some lube gets between the roller and sprocket teeth and the rest gets flung off.

If you don’t over lube your chain, cleaning them is unnecessary.

And even if you think cleaning a chain is a good idea, more often than not, and depending on technique, it promotes wear by forcing crud down past the side plates and between the rollers and pin, and can damage the O rings too.

Changing out a counter shaft sprocket at least 3 times to a chain and rear sprocket is a cost effective way of increasing the total life. Cs sprockets wear faster because they have about 1/3 the number of teeth to deal with the same transmission loads as the rear sprocket. They are in effect the weakest link.

Use the biggest cs sprocket you can, more teeth and bigger diameter equals less wear.

Over tightening of chains is chronic in my experience. Regular tightening of your chain likely means you have it too tight to start with. An over tight chain wears it and the sprockets prematurely, and puts extra loads and therefore wear on the wheel bearings, countershaft and countershaft bearing, and compromises the rear suspension operation as the loads are transferred to the engine cases instead of the spring and damper.

Chain adjustment and tension is not dependant on load, just the geometry above. Chains should be adjusted when all 3 pivot points, ie the countershaft, swingarm pivot and rear axle are in line because that’s when the distance from the axle to the countershaft is greatest.

Modern chains rarely need adjusting. Once they do, its normally time to spend $s

Click to expand...

I really had to put this excellent post up again. When you talk about oiling the chain, what sort of chain oil do you use. I've heard of people using simple CRC stuff, then there's the slightly thicker Lanolin stuff, then the spray on grease, then we have a range of chain oils, right up to the super-thick stuff that says it resists throw-off. It sure makes a mess though. (Although I saw a thick one advertised the other day as 'clear').

What do you think Steve?