Starter oddities - new thing for me

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chilledspode

chilledspode

Joined
Oct 3, 2004
Messages
350
Location
Yellowknife, NT Canada
My 06 FS650 with just 20hrs on it just underwent a complete jetting makeover - more on that after I figure out how it is working, but when I went to start it on the button the starter would initially engage and then spin free.

Over and over and would not stay engaged long enough to start it - if it even engaged at all. Over 50% of the time the starter would just spin. Is this a low voltage and solenoid scenario? or some sort of impending mechanical failure.

Any ideas on what happened here?

On the plus side in desperation I booted it in running shoes, knowing full well I deserved to be bit for this act of stupidity - Poof! It lit up on the first kick - I was astounded...

After 20minutes of run time the happy button is back to normal - press and 1-2 revolutions and beautiful noises come to life.

Normally it is very dry here and this discourages draining of batteries to atmosphere but we did have 3-4 days of very high humidity ....


Cheers and there was much rejoicing - this thing flat up a runs away from itself now!

I'm a happy dawg... :D

Mark
 
Hiya Mark
Some may disagree, but i think it's down to your oil - iether dirty or wrong viscoscity or temp rating, causing your sprague to free spin.
There are many other possibilities and keeping your battery tip top always helps, but my advice would be to start it off the kickstart when cold.

Regards
Ady
 
Hi Ady,

Funny you should mention oil - I had just changed it as part of the work I was doing. It is all fresh and it is 20W50 Mobil which I have run before without issue.

I going to practice my kick starting drill as you suggest.

Cheers

Mark
 
either that or the sprague is on its way out, as what you describe is similar to what mine did before giving up the ghost completely
 
Hi Cypher

Is the sprague clutch going away on a 20hr bike possible?

Cheers

Mark
 
i would be surprised if it was but it's a possibility.

i've no experience with the 650's as mines a 400 but if the smaller bikes can spin them out after a couple of months of starting from cold on the button then getting that big 650 going unless it's set up perfect is going to put alot of strain on the sprague.
 
I have no prior berg experience but this bike has always started with in 1-2secs on the starter, but I have always started it cold with the button, under the assumption that the 06's were beefed up over previous versions - it appears I may be wrong....

It is not misbehaving now, but I am concerned about continuing with cold starts on the happy button..

As a street tard, kickstarting from cold is less than ideal but certainly doable

Cheers

Mark
 
Mark,
I don't think your sprague is on its way out, just doing what it's supposed to do. Your Berg is doing what is very typical and the very reason it is always suggested to use your left leg upon cold starting. For some reason, the e-start and sprague mechanism just works so much better when the motor is warm.

i have to confess that i am guilty for using the button for cold starting when the outside temp is high enough. if it's cold out, there's no way she'll light just because of the free-wheeling.

log
 
I don't know if it will make a difference but maybe going to the 15W40 diesel oils with their lighter cold viscosity might be enough to help...

Can you damage anything by making the sprague clutch spin ?

Cheers

Mark
 
The 05 model e-start bikes like mine had a warranty recall on bad batch of the Backtorque Gear Wheel Limiters, aka the starter clutch. They were mistakenly manufactured with too low of a slip rating. Maybe part of the 06 run was affected too. Worth a call. After the fix it's been e-starting like a champ.

Another possibility is checking your exhaust valve clearances. If the exhaust valve gap is greater then spec then the auto-decompress function has to cover that extra gap before it can open the exhaust valve. If the auto-decompress function isn't working then it's much more work for the starter spin the motor.

Other ez tricks to help e-starting is to hold the manual decompressor lever in for the first second of the e-start to allow the motor to spin more easily.

When all else fails it's left kick, left kick...
 
Went out again and its business as usual...

I'll check the warranty issue but I was told that my bike was one of the last off the production line in 06 so it seems unlikely it didn't have the update - stranger things have happened though ...

Thanks for the info.

Valves were just reset and started fine before this odd occurence and I am going with they are in spec - it is running and starting well, in general.

Left leg? Everyone says that but I am an old CanAm guy and I kick the berg with the right leg - but then again I am not a racer needing quick restarts... :)

Cheers

Mark
 
Thought I'd bring this one back - I have a few more questions...

How does the freewheel assembly limit/transmit the torque throughput?

parts #'s 20/26/24/25 from the exploded starter view comprise the freewheel gear/freewheel/bearing/and freewheel hub

There are no details on the freewheel that I can find but it appears to be some sort of clutch pack - I can't figure out from the manuals how it couples the inner face gear to the hub...

When people are refering to the sprague are they refering to the freewheel (#26)?

I gather this is not a serviceable part

It is now below 10degC and the e-start won't even turn it consistently with the decomp pulled in. It will kick start in 2-3 kicks thankfully. At 10degC this thing makes big power!

Cheers

Mark
 
It's the whole entire assembly that is called starter sprague clutch, a type of one-way clutch. I have tried to find out if it was named after the inventor, or if it is named like that because it glows and radiates when getting upset (ok, the first one who gets that one is a nerd).
 
Hi All,

I have the same scenario on my 04 550, before i pulled the motor apart it would just spin and grab now and again so on the rebuild i fitted a new sprague just the roller part thinking that would be the end of that but no exactly the same as before spins and grabs now and again. It does work slightly better when hot but I thought the starter clutch issue was solved on the 04 onward.
Some body on here a while back posted a similar problem, he was going to replace the sprague and the dealer tested the torque limiter and this turned out to be the problem.
Does anybody think I might have the scenario here.

Regards

Sparks.
 
I think when the starter just spins it is the back torque limiter.
Mine was doing it continuously so I removed the clutch cover and supported the limiter shaft while I operated the starter and the limiter was freewheeling. I replaced it with another I had and initially it was a little better but started to freewheel as well. I then found my auto decompresser spring was broken. I replaced the spring and weight and the bike will now turn over and start but it still freewheels fairly often. I think it was worn from trying to turn over the motor when the auto decompressor was disabled.
I will replace it in the near future, for the moment I often have to use the manual decompressor to get the motor over the initial compression stroke and then it turns over fine and starts. On cold mornings it slips even when manually decompressed.
The sprag clutch design is the same as the KTM and I have never experienced it slipping on any of my many KTMs.
 
If I use a high grade and heavy racing oil like Redline 20-50, mine will freewheel. Switched to Mobile 15-50 or various 10-50 bike oils and no problems. Used the Redline when bike was almost new and 3 years later all is well. Slipping with the Redline didn't seem to cause any damage.
dan
 
here is what I did

When I got my 501 it would rarely start on the button, always slipping and was difficult to start on the boot as well. I put up with that for quite a while thinking it was just a Husaberg trait. But it used to really crap me off and one day while I was mucking around doing some maintenance, trying to make it better, I removed the stator for a look, saw nothing but when I put it back together it ws kapput.... SO here is what I did


Stator rewound by Sparks and while that was away,
Replaced the sprague assembly and the torque limiter.
Removed the auto decomp and built up the lobe.
adjusted the valves

When I put it all back together, it was and has been since, a totally different bike. Starts immediately on the button hot or cold and the sprague is yet to slip.
Maybe the climate here helps as the temperature rarely below 10 celcius I dont know. But I am sure the mod to the auto decomp is a big help to the extending the life of the starter sprague.
 
RE: here is what I did

21 800.40.021.000 GEAR WHEEL TORQUE LIMITER 03

starter.jpg
 
Re: RE: here is what I did

LeFrog said:
What do you call the torque limiter?
Click to expand...

Item 23 on the page Craigy put up. the gear assy between the starter and the Sprague assy. Torque limiter.... anti kickback assy :? not real sure what the real terminology is. I call it Anti kickback assy but used torque limiter in the previous thread cause that is what the other guys seemed to be calling it
 

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