No confidence with front end of 09 570 on hard ground

My 09 570 is awesome everywhere except on hard-pack corners. It seems as though it could wash out at any stage. I have played with settings and fork height in the clamps without success. Now that I have seen that the 2010's have a 22mm offset I am thinking that this might be the way to go. Anybody else experienced this?

Correct spring rate and sag settings are paramount. That with proper tire selection and pressures should help.
I do wonder myself about the 22mm offset.
I have a Rekluse offset axle I may have to try on the bike to see if I can emulate the offset.

Hi jed550e
had the same issue with my 09 450 and with 22mm clamps problem was solved
it just makes the bike calmer and more stable and no springs/ revalve will fix it

later VIKING

The only place I notice this is on the pavement. The front end will wiggle at speeds above 55 MPH, and I experimented today with trying to get it to wiggle at slow speeds by upsetting the handle bars with a bit of input. Very easy to get it to wiggle and I can imagine in an emergency situation it might go into a tank slapper. But this seems to only be when I am going straight ahead. At speed in corners, on or off pavement, the bike seems very confidence inspiring - like I could turn inside of anything. This despite the fact that I am running agressive non-DOT knobbies on the pavement. Quite a few times I have had to reign myself in by reminding myself that I am leaned over in a tight corner on knobbies.

I think though that I will probably get a damper for this and off-road riding in general, but maybe also the 22 mm parts. That and get the suspension setup for my 250# weight which I am sure the stock settings are not optimized for.

Jed,
I will start this by saying that these bike are very sensitive to set up, even compared to other PDS bikes, KTM etc. I will put some numbers in for clarity but you may find you will get it setup quicker if you follow the descriptions, as I get a big difference in the numbers from small differences in the amount of fuel seating position etc and have heard of people getting good result with anything between 90-125mm of rear sag when to me the sweet spot is no bigger than about 3-4mm ether side of mark that will work for me and the rest of the setup.

Rear low, so slack head angle lots of trail: The bike will be very stable in a straight line and feel a little slow and heavy to turn in, the bike will have controllable understeer in the corner and be predictable and fairly easy to recover with the throttle and steering if the front goes away from you in a hurry on low traction surfaces.(Rear sag 115-120)

Add a turn of preload to the rear from above: Steering will feel lighter the bike will change direction quickly, will flick through fast short corners at speed, on long flat corners it will turn in well and feel pretty natural and balanced powering through the corner, bike will feel confident in its front end and will forgive the rider most things(riding through a corner with a trailing throttle as you are unsure of whats coming next etc.) (Rear sag around 110)

Add a turn from there more or less stock geometry: The bike will have razer sharp handling will change direction easily, brakes, throttle,weighting on the bike etc all need to be right. Poor riding technique at speed (read: me here) will put you on the floor in short order on slippy surfaces from knifing or washing depending on the mistake I have made.(100-105)

Add a turn from here:It will start to feel nervous on all but uphill sections, front will knife if not on the gas,steering will need constant corrections in the corner, it will feel like it wants to fall in on a brem, the back of bike will want to come round on you even just by shutting the throttle on turn in if its slick.

So from the above if the washout that is concerning you is a slow loss of front grip possibly getting worse if you try to steer for a tighter line add some rear preload, if it's turning in well but can quickly wash or knifes when you are tentative with the gas take a turn out.
Once you are in your happy place you can then fine tune the entry and exit with the clickers and fork height. The front rebound is sensitive to very small changes,stock is already pretty slow and slowing further can give a nasty tuck during turn in on fast sweepers.

As for changing the clamps to a bigger offset, what that does is reduce the trail or caster the front wheel has and as a result the bars will feel lighter to the rider as the reduced trail offers less centering forces on the tire, probably not a great idea with the stock shock length of 411mm with a recommended sag of 105mm but with a shorter shock and or more sag (lower rear) the head angle will be a more open reducing the steering sharpness it will also increasing the trail making the steering feel heavy to the rider so at this point increasing the offset and reducing this extra trail will lighten the steering up for the rider but still allow the more open head angle to slow the steering response.
So to me a lower rear with a larger offset would be good thing with what I have learned about this bike.
I also think setting it a bit lower in the rear helps with traction and I just plane like the stance on the bike when its a little lower than stock in the rear, take a look at a pic of a WEC KTM or Berg the shocks (rear wheel drop) look a lot shorter than stock when on the stand and I think there running 24mm offset.



Chris

Chris, thank you very much for this great informative post!

I just want to ask you, have you played with the front sag and spring preload? What is your front sag?

Thank you!

Take some air out of the front tire.

Sabink,

Front preload is at 3 turns in, Sag 43 static, rider 55-70 is depending on the stiction. These numbers are with the bike fully fueled and ready to ride Tools, water etc.

Chris

Thanks for your responses,

I just ordered a set 22mm offset triple clamps, so I will let you know how they go when I get them, may be a few weeks though. They are expensive but if they make the bike that much better they are worth it!
If the main upgrade to the 2010 is a 22mm offset clamp, then it must be the way to go.

Jed,
I don't think 22's are really an upgrade as such, they are just what Husaberg have to work with this year. The new single position 22's with supposedly more flex are the stock clamps for all full size offroad/sx KTM's this year and a lot of there models are running with a different frames (head stock to frame height) and shock length this year, I am pretty sure Husaberg will have also altered something else in the geometry to make these new clamps work with this years bikes. If you have no confidence in the front end of the bike I very much doubt a few mm's in fork off set will help anything, working on your set up will achieve much more than spending bucks trying to fix something which isn't broken.

Chris

I'm running 100 mm sag when I am sitting forward or standing.
I am running 120mm when I am sitting near the rear of the seat.
On paved roads my front end was very stable at 60 mph.
I have 15 psi on the front tire and a 22 mm offset.

jed550e said:

Thanks for your responses,

I just ordered a set 22mm offset triple clamps, so I will let you know how they go when I get them, may be a few weeks though. They are expensive but if they make the bike that much better they are worth it!
If the main upgrade to the 2010 is a 22mm offset clamp, then it must be the way to go.

Click to expand...

jed

i'll tell you now that you have waisted your money and indeed may be going backwards. you have got several things to look at on the front end.

traction
you needed to check and tell us here the make of tyre, how old the tyre is and your psi?

balance
your ride height back to front and front to back affects the front end grip. as a rule; if balance is the problem here its because you don't have enough weight on the front.

suspension
this can be because the rear end is too low through a lack of preload or a spring that's too soft. on the front it can be all the 'stiff' things like too much preload, too strong springs, too much compression damping or even the rebound being way off.

a cure
if you really had tried everything - and you haven't by any means, you would decide to LOAD THE FRONT UP SOME MORE. to do this you get clamps with less offset such as 16s or 17s. these coincidentally make the bike easier to turn at low speed but harder to throw on its side whilst they more importantly, load the front end and change the balance of weight to the front by a tadge.

the difficult bit is getting to know which bit is letting you down. it could even be YOU. yes YOU! if you don't sit on the tank and get your leg forward the bike will also wash out.... husaberg have designed the bike to function with reasonably experienced riders and the newbies always struggle. they even get the suspension set up by experts prefectly WRONGLY.

as my dad used to say: your computer is only as good as the info that you put in...

regards

Taffy

Taffy
I totally disagree it is in my opinion best money that I have spent on my bike
having the same problem as jed550e I tried every thing that you mention and then some but nothing would cure the ill, somethings made it better but the feeling was always there
for sake of argument if 19mm offset was that good why did the 2010 change to 22mm
and why are the factory riders running 24mm offset

later VIKING

My two cents worth here...........

Courtesy of Dirt Rider on line we have the image below, and this will help clear up a few things for those reading this thread since a picture is worth a thousand words.

As you can see, decreasing the amount of off set INCREASES the amount of trail or caster. This also INCREASES the amount of weight on the front wheel, as the wheel base is now shortened a bit as Taffy pointed out. So, what we end up with when INCREASE the offset/trail is a front end with more weight on it, and it wants to go straighter. What we also end up with, is more weight on the rear of the bike since the overall wheel base has been shortened. This has a knock on effect in how much the fork is compressing with a given fork spring strength. Follow? And the same is true for the rear, the rear is also going to settle more with this change, with a given shock spring. It's simple physics. Again as Taffy has pointed out.

So, by increasing the offset, you are lengthening the overall wheel base, and decreasing the amount of trail/caster, and you are also effectively INCREASING the fork and shock spring rate since you are "increasing the arm" as I believe Taffy put it. Again, basic physics. . This will make for a lighter feeling front end that wants to turn more easily, and make it less stable due the decrease in caster. When most people think about stability, they think high speed, this is not the case though. Stability can be applied to low speed as well, think tree roots and rocks, and the self righting ability of a given amount of caster or trail.

So, if one considers the proportional difference between the rear shock strength/and weight bias as compared to the front spring strength/weight bias. I think you would see a greater amount of weight bias onto the front end with this change, although at the same time, having less weight on the front due to the increase in overall wheel base, and the proportional strength of the rear shock spring as compared to the fork springs.

What does all this mean? Well, to put it in basic terms, without changing anything else, just the offset, one has robbed peter to pay paul. You cannot get around having the basic suspension set up, otherwise one is just fiddling about and making compromises. The whole reason the front is not biting correctly with the 19's is that the rear spring on one's bike is not the correct rate, or has too much sag, and as Taffy pointed out, is not putting enough weight bias forward. Everything has to be close in terms of balance to begin with, or changes that are made to the fork height, amount of preload on the springs etc is not going to work, because the existing set up is outside of the influence of these changes. Sure you might feel a difference, but then there is something else that is not right once that change is made.

For example, if you have a shock spring that is too soft, and you try and put in more preload to get enough weight on the front so it will turn, more than likely the static measurement will be off, even if the rider sag is within limits, and the ride will be harsh in the rear, and the bike still will not work properly as the static ride height will be off.

So you end up chasing your tail making clicker adjustments to soften the initial ride, and increase the rebound damping on the rear to calm down the kicking you are now having because of all the pre load you have on the spring. And at the same time, while your bike now might work better under load in the corners, it will want to tuck when you're off the gas b/c too much weight is now forward, or it may want to over steer in the rear. This set up will also make it a bit of a handful as you transition from open to close throttle, or from closed to open throttle in the turns, as the too soft spring will tend to compress too much with your weight on it when you add the torque of the motor, or inversely when you chop the throttle mid corner and all that weight gets shifted forward.

That's why it is imperative to have the right springs, and the right type of rear spring, and the right valving for your riding conditions and ability. It is, as mentioned before a balancing act.

If the 22's have given you handling nirvana then more power to you! And I'm happy for you-really I am. I just wanted you all to consider what is happening when you make changes to the offset. The more offset you run the less trail, and the less stable the bike will be, and the quicker it will turn provided you have enough weight on the front wheel.

I'm still running my 19's, and have had my suspension re valved and sprung for my ability, Weight, and riding area. All I have done since I got my suspension back from my tuner is take 1mm or 1 turn of preload out of the rear, and raised the forks 5mm. For riding in the mountains, I take 5 clicks of low speed compression out of the forks and the shock, that's it. It is super stable at high speed, and will still turn on a dime. It is so stable in fact, that I have turned my steering damper low speed adjustment off, and reduced the damping sweep to the minimum.

And as my suspension tuner tells me after he sets my bike up-just go ride the bike.

Viking-your point is well taken. As far as the 24's go, those guys on the factory team are on another dimensional plane. How much do you weigh, what springs are you running, and have you had your bike re valved?




Accompanying article: http://www.dirtrider.com/tech/141_0908_ ... index.html

DaleEO
have you Had ride with 22mm offset? you can talk all you want about trail spring rate revalve etc, it is still theory on your part too where I am at it is my perceived result

later Per

Per, you may be have gone the correct way to correct your problems, however, he was asking for help and to honestly do so, we need more facts, like weight. All the parts on the planet won't make it work if the spring weights are off. Std springs to 180 lbs, 76/46 for 180 to 220 and 80/48s for heavier. I have never ridden a bike that was so fickle with the spring rates, and many of my buddies who bought 09s, said that the proper springs made it a completely different bike.

start with the basics...then proceed.

Pollo's 3 cents here.
I say let em run the 22s . It's their ride that they spent 10 grand on.
Good info though as always Dale
But each will have their own preference, so let em go.

Pollo

VIKING said:

DaleEO
have you Had ride with 22mm offset? you can talk all you want about trail spring rate revalve etc, it is still theory on your part too where I am at it is my perceived result

later Per

Click to expand...

Nope haven't had a ride with the 22mm offset on an 09, and like I said, I'm glad it worked out for you, really. Nothing better than getting it to work just the way you want. Like I said before,if you changed nothing else and only the offset, then there was an effect overall on the bike, that affected spring rates, geometry etc...

And you're right, I can talk all I want about spring rates, offset, and re valving as I have had all this done to my 09 bike and the results were a day and night difference from the stock bike, as I pointed out in my previous post. Super stable, and yet has plenty of bite in the front. I'm about 190 pounds fully geared up, .46 springs up front, and a 7.6-9.5 PDS 7 in the rear, and run about 95mm of rider sag. My bike is basically set up for a desert expert rider. Now you might think that the desert is all wide open fast terrain, some of it is, but, a lot of it is super technical rocky terrain, on soft to hard pack terrain.
So, as a point of reference for the conversation, what is your weight? what springs are you running? And did you have the suspension revalved?

Handling perceived is handling achieved................

what a stupid conversation?

if you already know the answers don't ask the bleedin questions. if you want opinions then remember that like arseholes - everyone's got one!

i don't know what the factory run! and even if i did, yes i would copy the factory but if it didn't handle then well i wouldn't know why would i!

so buy the clamps cos that's what the factory do. lets close this thread coz the pubs open.

regards

Taffy