Nikasil coating scratches .. The whole story in one post ..

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Joined
Apr 6, 2007
Messages
190
Location
Gormley, Ontario, Canada
Husaberg 550E purchased new in 2007.

On the very first startup, the engine made some horrible grinding noises. It turns out the the snap ring for the kickstart idler gear was missing or improperly installed. The idler gear bearing cage and rollers passed through the all primary gears damaging many teeth. The dealer replaced the damaged parts. The oil was changed several times to remove the leftover bits.

Not long after the bike was put in service the engine started making a humming noise when it was under load. This was most noticeable when travelling on forest roads in third or fourth gear at 1/3 to 1/2 throttle. I knew something wasn't quite right, but since I mostly ride singletrack just off idle, I rode it for the rest of 2007. There were tiny bits trapped in the oil filter at each oil change. The magnet was only normally fuzzy. The particles in the drain pan were not magnetic.

Over the winter of 2007 I took the engine apart to investigate. I have a complete machine shop and made up the required tools. The Berg engine is easy to work on. One thing I needed to check out was the crank. I could tell the engine had more vibration than necessary. The .008"crank runout was the result of me keeping the revs too high one time climbing a hill. I trued the crank, then welded the crank pin. The runout was .0025" when done. I expected this to be adequate for the next season.

There was substantial scoring of the bore. The piston had heavy scratches and the rings were marked up. This was obviously the source of the humming noise. The particles in the oil were tiny bits of nikasil. At this point I figured the failure started as a result of all the bits in the engine from the original kickstart idler gear issue. Here is a picture of liner number one:

Liner_1.jpg


I could not find anything else wrong with the engine, so I blew out all the oil passageways with compressed air and wiped off the insides of the engine cases. I did not remove the transmission gears, they stayed in place in the left engine case. The piston and liner were replaced (second set) and the engine went together well.

Here is where the problem begins. On my first ride in 2008, after an hour's operation the humming noise was back. The engine ran smooth when I started it, but after a bit I could tell there was some extra vibration. I pulled the engine apart to check things out. Dialing the crank shows that it had relaxed some despite the welding. I figure the original large .008" runout deformed the crank wheel bores and it had settled at .005". This does not concern me as I knew welding the used parts might not work out. The real issue is that the piston and bore were both damaged by scoring. You can see that the compression ring is not very good as it fails to make full contact around the bore. You can also notice how coarse the honing is. Here is a picture of liner number two:

Liner_2.jpg


More investigation was needed. The oil pump had slightly more clearance than recommended. Radially it varies from .006" to .007" compared to the .005" limit stated in the repair manual. While the oil pressure may be reduced some, this engine has no plain bearings and should not need extremely high oil pressure. The oil pump wear likely occurred from the particles that passed through the coarse strainer screen.

I wondered if rich jetting might be reducing bore lubrication, but on the second piston/liner I had already installed a 42 pilot jet in place of the overly rich 48 that Dale supplies with his kit. I tried a 38 but the idle would hang up too much. Main jet at 160 and clip in #4 worked OK. TPS disconnected and no pump squirt. I doubt the jetting caused any problems.

The only conclusion I could make was that I should have totally stripped each part and manually washed every piece to guarantee cleanliness. I think there must have been some tiny grains of nikasil left somewhere that came out after the engine was run. While this train of thought seemed logical, what I found during the next disassembly proved that cleanliness was not the problem.

OK, so now I am ready to install the third piston and liner. I also replaced the crank while I was at it. I checked the new crank before installing it. I dialed the crankshaft with the support bearings close to the crankwheel cheeks. It came in at .003", which is only slightly less than their published limit of .004". I installed the balancer and bearings and checked it again. With the support bearings now farther out under the main bearing races, the crank ends dialed in at .002". Since it was a combination of twist and parallel, I decided to leave it alone. Now that I know to limit a Husaberg engine to moderate revs, it should be adequate for my needs (although it's not very impressive as to new part quality). I had to return a brand new oil ring that was tight in the piston. It had a twist in it. Also one liner had to go back as it had a bad spot in the plating.

Because I'm on the third set of piston/liner parts, I do a meticulous teardown and complete cleaning. Here is how I do the assembly: I inspect the new piston to see that the rings slide OK. I coat the piston and rings with fresh oil. I coat the liner and the assembly sleeve with oil. The assembly sleeve is made of bronze and has a tapered bore. The rings compress gradually as the piston is pushed through the sleeve into the liner. Only a slight thumb push is required to install the piston. I slide the piston down to the bottom of the liner and install the wrist pin through the rod.

I "time" the balancer when the crank/liner/piston assembly is put into the left engine case. The joint surface is coated with sealer and the right engine case is assembled. Everything goes together with no problems and I torque the case bolts. I put more fresh oil around the piston above the top ring. The oil ring is still saturated from the initial assembly. I turn the flywheel back and forth multiple times to move the piston halfway up the bore and back down. It slides freely. After a few minutes I wipe the oil out of the bore. The rings are already marking the bore. Here is a picture of liner number three:

new_bore.jpg


Because the previous engine problems were due to nikasil failures, I'm not bolting the rest of the engine together unless I'm sure the bore is fine. When I run my fingernail around the bore, it catches on some of the scratches you see in the photo. This is not good so I take it all apart again.

While researching nicasil coatings I found one article with a lot of good information. The author states that best success is had using some additional finishing AFTER diamond honing.

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb110242.htm

Now let's move on to where I think the problem is. I have to say the compression ring is the culprit. Using a file on an old top ring, I can tell it's very tough. The chrome moly ring has a very slight chamfer on top, but is quite sharp on the bottom edge. The real issue is the amount of taper built into the ring face. Look at this picture of the top ring from liner #3 rebuild.

Compression_ring.jpg


You can see how only the lower portion is touching the cylinder wall. I believe this tiny area puts extreme pressure on the bore. This pressure rips off the honing peaks quickly and creates the scratching problem. Keep in mind, the top ring face is only .048" wide, thus the initial contact area is much less than that. The oil ring is softer and feels like cast iron. It shows an even wear pattern. I doubt it has any effect on the coating/ring problem.

I have made up a piston ring clamping fixture for the lathe so I can machine the top ring OD. I might rig up a Dremel as a tool post grinder and grind the OD instead. Providing the top ring with a full width contact surface is the only way I can see to fix the problem. This will apply whether I replate the liner or have a custom cast iron liner made. I am leaning toward cast iron, but I will need to discuss the application details more with LA Sleeve before proceeding.

I suspect that bore scratching on Husaberg liners is quite common. In most cases the rings wear in quickly enough that the scratching is minimal. Replated liners may perform better than OEM parts by having higher quality coatings and/or better surface finishes.

I had inteneded to buy a Wossner/Atena piston and send it to LA Sleeve hoping that Wossner's ring quality is better than the OEM parts. Since the OEM piston is still OK, I will do some experimenting with ring finishing. Buying a set of rings is more economical than buying the entire piston assembly.

I will update this thread when I find out anything noteworthy.
 
RE: Nikasil coating scratches .. The whole story in one post

the bike would still ring with that scoring id say, and i doubt it was nicasil in your oil, it wil be bits of gear faces, your an engineer like me, i use a type of autoclave with solent and steam to get all parts clean and mint, then inspect each individal part, id say your humming is gearbox related, a tiny bit of wear on gears makes horrible noises, also check out other bearings
as for scoring, is the liner out of round??
 
RE: Nikasil coating scratches .. The whole story in one post

I also noticed some minor scoring inside my piston barrel when I had my engine apart. At the time it seemed minor enough that it didn't seem like it was much to worry about.

Are minor scoring markings on the piston barrel nominal or a sign of something amiss?
 
I am with Pete. I dont believe you are having a nikasil issue. When nikasil flakes, it flakes. You will see it coming off the liner. The scoring you are showing looks like standard wear to me. I think you may be alittle paranoid with your ring and piston wear issues. The humming noise is probably an issue with the first repair. Vibration....some 650's vibrate more than others, it's not necessarily a sign of failure. I would recheck the trans and primaryy gears like Peter said.
Just my opinion, I'm not a professional.
Now I will wait for taffy to yell bullocks :wink:
 
Have you checked the crank alignment? My '06 450fe had a serious vibration issue, took it apart, measured the crank, which was way off. Replaced the balancer which had been taken off. That solved the problem. Could the humming be the freewheel? Just guessing.
 
I was originally baffled by the humming sound as the only time I'd heard something similar was a struck ring on a two stroke many years ago. The noise is more of a rubbing sound and the engine has to be loaded just right to hear it. Most people would assume it was a normal engine sound. You would have trouble noticing it unless you were already famailiar with how this engine sounds. The other indicator was oil consumption. The level would drop about one quarter of the sight glass on every ride.

Very light scratches are normal. Often this would be called witness marking. I have concerns because I can catch my fingernail in them. The coating was not flaking off, that would be very noticable (there is no aluminum visible below the scratches). The particles in the oil were very tiny bits as opposed to flakes. The engine ran OK, it just sounded "off" and had oil consumtion.

My best guess is that the compression ring is stressing and damaging the coating. The engine vibration was a result of crank runout only. All the gears in the engine are in excellent condition. The fact that they all have straight cut teeth will make it a noisy motor.
 
Oil drops 1 quarter of the sight glass? Arent the bergs only meant to be filled to just bellow the sight??
 
engine failure.

Sorry to hear about your engine.
The Nikasil surface is hard like hell, will not cause the problem on the photos, must be metal pieces left from first brake-down.
You will always get some lines from the piston in the liner, like small scratches.This wear is normal. If you have a defective piston ring this will cause damege.
Crank balancing: we have after re-build approx 0.03-0.04MM un balance in the outer ends of the cranks, not more. The figures you have in inch is way to much.
We ride some engines without balancer when the crank is dialed in correct.
Welded of course due to that they twist.
Use the elko piston, its still the best and lightest OEM part at the moment.

We now run the 105mm Ben Ballard piston kit and are very satisfied with this.

//Thomas
 
RE: engine failure.

.03 to .04mm = .0012 to .0016 inch, so yes the factory crank has poor specs. The scratches appear to be caused by the razor sharp bottom edge of the ring. It must be snagging some coating which then makes the scratches larger.

I have had no oil leaks anywhere, even when filling to the top of the sight glass (normally I fill 3/4). The oring under the outboard waterpump bearing is very dainty and is easily deformed causing a leak. I use a slightly heavier section oring and have no problem.
 
RE: engine failure.

Neil those scratches don`t look to bad to me, mine has one real nasty one and I have to top the oil after
every ride I figure it would allow as much blowby as the ring gap would.
Get some use out of those bores I say.
No dought you checked the ring gap?
"We now run the 105mm Ben Ballard piston kit and are very satisfied with this."
Thomas, does the JBS kit have a Nikasil coating? Does the 105mm piston increase the compression?

Cheers spanner
 
RE: engine failure.

in my opinion your problem is in the first paragraph here. the nikasil linar should have steel rings in it, not chrome rings.
http://www.husaberg.org/index.php?name= ... asil+linar

a little more info
http://www.husaberg.org/index.php?name= ... asil+linar

lineaweaver's opinion, also note something that DR_C found out.
http://www.husaberg.org/index.php?name= ... r&start=15

if we take Dr_C's word in the third link and Langcourt's opinion from the first, i think what you found Neil is NOT suprising.

these bikes should be running steel rings.

regards

Taffy
 
RE: engine failure.

I had a long talk with Dave at LASleeve about coatings etc. They have only seen Nicasil issues on some engines that have spray deposited coatings (as opposed to plated bores). He wasn't sure what to advise based on my pictures. The liner he would supply would be hardened iron.
He also said molybdenum steel with a moly coating is common as a compression ring. Oil rings are usually cast iron with an expander. I was likely in error when I called the top ring chrome moly. I had seen that mentioned on this site and just called it the same. I can only assume the sharp edge of the ring was pushing oil off the bore and allowing more contact than normal (hard to figure how when it was saturated with oil).
There is some interaction taking place between the compression ring and the coating that I don't yet understand.
 
RE: engine failure.

I was always under the opinion thar a chome top ring was fine in a nickasil bore.The only no-no I am aware of is a chrome ring in a chrome bore.
 
RE: engine failure.

chrome steel!

it's too hard.

neil, i would love to hear more on the steel linars mate. keep me posted on these. especially if some way can be found to go to 102mm at the same time etc. after all you can run a thinner steel linar than an aluminium one.

something doesn't stack up about the explanation you've been fed either.... not sure about that at all! i wonder if under a microscope the ring isn't square edged? a ring is meant to bed in not flamin well scratch the bore! and either lining should be good so why slag one off unless you flog 'A' to joe public and you want to ******** that 'B' is bad?

both processes should be up to the job so that only leaves the rings and as far as touching the linar goes, well you need to check it like i've been doing for ovality! they are oft all over the show.

a lot of this could still be rogue spark issues as well. even now, with all that's been put right, how do we know or trust that this stuff is right?

after all. the japs don't put their MXers on the road so why do...... what? 4-5 blokes think that that's a great idea? and look at the ****-ups!!!! we're talking dozens. so why should we trust them on lubrication? on linars and pistons!

anyone who produces a 21mm wide squish needs their head testing?
3mm high squishes as a cure?
mains without float?

i have bits break and stories now i'm in the trade that PMO!!!

neil, don't trust the manufacturer, don't trust the dealers or the area reps on here. if all they can do is sell stuff and wax lyrical about the new stuff before it's even been tested then they have no credibility in my view.

i believe the steel linar may well be a good way forwards. if you didn't know, pro-x do linars for KTMs which means that what you really need to do is get to a 100mm - 102mm ktm engine and see their linar for potential conversion.

regards

Taffy
 
RE: engine failure.

from the wiseco piston cataloque,they recommend steel alloy,ferrox plated and chrome faced rings for a nickasil bore.
 
Whoa Taffy....when I read some of your posts it feels like someone let go of a clockspring....

I used my lathe fixture to machine .0005" off the top of the compression ring to do more testing. I will rig up a wrist pin holder for the arbor press so I've got an easy way to cycle the piston in the liner.

Ring_holder.jpg
 
Re: RE: engine failure.

nsman said:
from the wiseco piston cataloque,they recommend steel alloy,ferrox plated and chrome faced rings for a nickasil bore.

i've just put mine together with an old wiseco. it doesn't have a chrome steel compression ring in it. i have wiseco in my 400/680ss and they aren't chrome either.

there is so much we don't know about these things. this could go on to be as big a thread as the maiins issue but at least there we had someone who has tested stuff come forward and give us an answer that is usable.

it would appear that until we have some proffessional evidence, we won't know. however i do want to know more about these two systems of coating because i and the customers that come to me, are having real troubles when they arrive.

regards

Taffy
 
RE: Re: RE: engine failure.

I have been researching bore coatings and piston ring coatings. I think we need to be careful of our terminology. I believe the sleeves that are made to redo bores are cast iron, not steel. The automotive industry has put many hours of testing into their latest products. They have found bore straightness and surface finish to be critical factors in the fight to lower vehicle emissions. They are also using much thinner piston rings and moving them closer to the top of the piston. The rings have multiple coatings on them. The main coating has a "backup" coating underneath it. Another technology is oil retention through laser etched micro pockets burned into the cylinder walls.

One term that keeps coming up is "plateau finishing", where an extra process is done to reduce roughness left by diamond honing. This makes the bore as close to a "worn in" finish as possible and is why automobile engines don't require a "break-in".

One thing that a cast iron liner will do for the Husaberg engine is to provide true dimensional stability. We know the stock liners are not always round. Nsman has stated the liners are clamped by the cases. On my engine the liner is not a snug fit in the case. There is a couple of thou clearance and the clamping occurs via the orings (and head gasket on the flange).

I have some additional observations from the piston ring machining that I will add later. At this stage I plan to proceed with the iron liner. The only question is what to do about the rings.

Taffy: Can you clamp up your next set of cases without the crank or orings and see if the liner slips down in place? Can you use your bore gauge in the case to come up with internal measurements? I'd like to see how that compares to my drawing.

Liner_diameter.jpg
 
Quote:

"Can you use your bore gauge in the case to come up with internal measurements? I'd like to see how that compares to my drawing"

if you are talking about me measuring the inside of the cases down where the 'O' rings sit = i can't. i can only measure variation.

you'll find that that area is machined very, very roughtly and could well be part of the problem.

next 'O' ring check is just 2-3 days away and then two together methinks.

the rings at the top and being thinner is 30-40 year old technology now as far as racing goes. might be even 50 years old. however for a production vehicle you are likely correct.

hope this helps.

regards

Taffy
 
Understood. Then try and see what the fit is like on a test slip-in please (no orings). You can judge it for free or snug. I would like the liner produced by LASleeve to fit other bikes if possible.
 

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