New info on 09 Husabergs

While some may be resistant to electronic engine controls, it IS a wonderful, and very tunable method of engine management. Old timers will cringe and make rhetorical and anecdotal remarks about performance, but with a paradigm shift of knowledge and skills, you will love it. Yes modding it will require different tools, and sometimes different parts, but what DOESN"T??
I rolled my snow-machine 200 vertical feet down a mountain last winter while high marking, there was a plastic parts yard sale littering the mountainside, however my machine started first pull(as always), try that with a carb fed engine. I also modded my electronically controlled DIT Ford diesel truck, what fun, and cheaper than modding my '75 chevy plow truck. Yes, I had to change software(fuel mapping), some hard parts and modify some stock ones on the diesel. The ford is bigger, heavier, more powerful and more fuel efficient than the Old School truck.
For the masses EFI is the way to go, and there will be plenty of tuners out there for those with discriminating performance tastes. I have re-calibrated hundreds of vehicles over the years, go to a new car dealer and ask about "re-calibration" "re-flashing" etc., all new cars require software modifications as un-intended issues or performance concerns develop in the real world. Good riddance to mechanical fuel management. I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying these things, but I have long since quit caring what others think , way to go HUSABERG!!!! :headbang:

EFI -

Huskyfatman said:

Taffy said:

more efficient?

i don't think so!

regards

Taffy

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I'm pretty sure fuel efficiency had something to do with the auto manufactures going to EFI, or am I wrong?

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I think the EFI is more to do with emissions laws and performance. Emissions are becoming a big issue across the globe. The performance issue is interesting one - EFI gives a more consistent level overall because the fuel can be accurately metered to match the engines requirments. Carbies are a trade off off provided by multiplejets and floats and diaphrams and the like. Don't get me wrong modern carbies are brilliant - and they have to be to compete with EFI .

The fact is that EFI is better - bikes are all transferring to EFI as smaller lighter systems become available. Car makers don't you see use carbies now because EFI is so much better and they don't have the weight and size issues we have.

I ride in the high country of Victoria (Australia) a lot - where we regularly ride up and down the valleys from 350m to 1400m so I will be looking forward to the consistency that EFI will give.

Like the rest of you - I just hope that it is reliable.

i have owned many fuel injected bikes and never had ANY issues

the reliability of the motor is what i would be concerned about

Hii Girls!


Here's my secound video from the Presentation if you intrested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZNDrVeejww

Anyway, don't care so much on EFI, it will be great, nothing to do with! Keihin is Keihin!

Ciao:
Kornel

Ditto Whosahberg

Taffy said:

more efficient?

i don't think so!

regards

Taffy

Click to expand...

How can it not be more efficient? The release states compensation for temperature and elevation otherwise known as density altitude compensation. Keeping in mind Parsko's quote of speculation of no 02 sensor based on GasGas's design, there is still a map in place based on a chosen density altitude. So, on any given day as the temps typically warm up the ECU or ECM will automatically be leaning the mix out to stay within the set parameters, whereas a carb would be running richer, or to put it another way, less efficient.

Speculation-- So there must be a baro sensor I would imagine, as the mass air sensor's that I know of would not do too well in a dirt bike environment. And there must be some sort of ambient air temperature thermocouple as well. I would therefore assume that the engine coolant temp, throttle position, rpm's, will be blended with the ambient conditions in the set maps' parameters to maintain the original mix.

Cannondale had three seperate maps that were available to it's owners that I believe one downloaded for free, or as part of the purchase price, however you want to look at it. I'm sure that each Husaberg dealer will have the device that is needed for diagnostic purposes and any new updated maps could either be downloaded for A)free as part of factory update, or B) for a small fee. The auto manufacturers do this on a regular basis of recalls etc... So there is no use in getting all wound up about buying the actual device. And I'm sure that persons such as Dale Lineaweaver will probably aquire said device and perhaps come up with his own custom map. Or perhaps there will be some sort of stacking type micro processor that either goes before or after the ECM the will provide different operating characteristics such as are found on most of todays diesel engine mods as mentioned in this thread by another poster.

We'll just have to wait and see what the real deal is. But one thing is for sure Husaberg has done it again!!

the trouble with you dale is that you think that husaberg are going to take the fueling soooooo low that it is virtually perfect! well that won't happen i'm afraid. they will set it up to remain slightly rich so that the owner never finds that lean cough or stutter!

so - no different to a carb then! and when you give me all this stuff about air pressure, humidity and that what does it add up to? a bag o beans!!!

the difference between summer and winter riding is one measly jet! 142 to 145 so never mind the fact that the Fi took all this in and spat out the correct jetting? at the end of the day there was only one jet in it.

furthermore, what on earth makes you think dale L would make something that you claim is near perfect - better! surely not. surely he'd throw his arms in the air and (after countless hours of R & D) declare the system faultless, unbeatable and unimprovable!

no.

he wouldn't would he.

it is improvable.

so it's not perfect!

so it must be slightly rich.

i rest ma case m'lud

regards

Taffy

But Taffy, I think the point that Dale is trying to make is that THE jet that gets put in the 09 will be the closest to perfect that any of us can have, across the board, no matter where we live, without having Sir Taffy or Sir Lineweaver jet our motorcycle. Whilst you are a god with the brass, there are a 100 or perhaps 1000 to you, and nothing personal here, that try and fail miserably. The best thing about fuel injection is that 99% of the consumer base cannot adj it.

I'm not sure I'm happy about your adventure with Sherco, maybe you'll show them a thing or two and Husaberg will have to come looking for you?? LOL

LOL!

Taffy

quote="Taffy"]the trouble with you dale is that you think that husaberg are going to take the fueling soooooo low that it is virtually perfect! well that won't happen i'm afraid. they will set it up to remain slightly rich so that the owner never finds that lean cough or stutter!

so - no different to a carb then! and when you give me all this stuff about air pressure, humidity and that what does it add up to? a bag o beans!!!

the difference between summer and winter riding is one measly jet! 142 to 145 so never mind the fact that the Fi took all this in and spat out the correct jetting? at the end of the day there was only one jet in it.

furthermore, what on earth makes you think dale L would make something that you claim is near perfect - better! surely not. surely he'd throw his arms in the air and (after countless hours of R & D) declare the system faultless, unbeatable and unimprovable!

no.

he wouldn't would he.

it is improvable.

so it's not perfect!

so it must be slightly rich.

i rest ma case m'lud

regards

Taffy[/quote]


All of the bikes that I know of that have been delivered recently are jetted lean on the bottom and rich on the top to pass EPA standards here in USA. I'm sure that you Brits have the same type of org, just by another name. That's why there is a "closed" course jetting spec, for our bikes as well as all the other enduro type bikes.

All the recent previous bikes have been jetted lean on the bottom=high NOX low hydrocarbon, and rich on top=low NOX high hydrocarbon, to pass the EPA test. And for those of you who don't know how this works-the bike is started and warmed up, then turned off. A large plastic bag is then sealed around the muffler, the bike is then started and ran a predetermined amount of time at idle, then at higher rpms and loads, then the bike is turned off. A sniffer probe is then inserted into the bag and the overall emissions are checked. If the emissions fall within a certain spec, the bike is given a green sticker, if not a red sticker. Right.

To make the bikes marketable they will pass the EPA test to get a green sticker. So, I can just about gurantee you that the bikes will be lean to pass this test.

Speculation-- There will be a closed course map available at some point. Just as you can set your jetting up on carbed bikes to a closed course setting. KTM makes a series of needles called the SIX DAYS NEEDLES that are considerably richer than the stock ones.

And like I said before (I shouldn't have to be saying any of this, but, will for those who have no exposure to this) different aftermarket companies will be offering maps for all the bikes that come fuel injected just like all the aftermarket comanies do for cars. There is a market for that sort of thing, that's why James Dean is making jet kits for just about all bikes these days. And let us not forget that there are companies that sell aftermarket ignitions as well.

The point is that FI is more efficient than a carb period. That'sONE of the reasons that large displacement auto engines that used to get 8-10mpg are now getting 15-17mpg, produce less emissions, and more power. Of course, it's not just FI, it's the ECM package which is what this new bike is going to come with. And like I stated before, as updates are made, they can easily be flashed into the ECM.

It may only be one jet for you between winter and summer, but for people like myself who ride at sea level and 50 degree's to 11,000' and 90 degree's it is more than one jet, it's two jets and a needle. And while this may not sound like much to you or me, to a lot of people this is a major pain, they just want to ride. And like the poster said about his sled tumbling down the mountain and starting on the first pull, when you have a tip over the bike will start right up on the button because a bunch of fuel will not have been dumped into the motor.

And as to your statement of "so - no different to a carb then! and when you give me all this stuff about air pressure, humidity and that what does it add up to? a bag o beans!!! " This merely shows me that you do not have a basic understanding of the physics of how all this works. Go to the drags, road races, or any other motor sporting event of consequence some time and see how they jet their cars, they use hand held weather stations with built in computations of what jets to run, or what metering rates to run based on the changing conditions to maintain a predetermined state of tune for their engines. So do your homework before you start slinging sh#t.

So for clarification, I never said it would be perfect now did I? I just said it would maintain the parameters orginally programmed in. And that people like Dale Lineaweaver will no doubt take the motor to a higher state of tune, that's what he does for a living and he's obviously good at it since he makes his living at it.

And like I said befored we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. I'm sure it will be a great first effort and the bike looks set to revolutionize the way dirt bikes are built.

This EFI thing keeps coming up on most forums lately. I can tell you that I have ridden quite a few EFI snowmobiles and (two, GasGas and Sherco) offroad motorcycles since I got my first EFI snowmobile (1991), I have been extremely pleased with EFI performance since it works so well everywhere. One great sideeffect is that they start right up after you wad it up in a crash or send it down a hill solo (I have been known to do this)!

the efi does seem to be the most contraversial point.

perhaps people need to read tests of the latest efi bikes such as the new huskies and sherco.

Dale

how can you sit there and compare apples to pears and keep a straight face! if the Fi is so spot on nobody should be able to improve on the "perfect" mixture"? and better fuel economy? i haven't noticed it on any of the roadbikes or the cars. i don't believe that they will reduce the mixtures down to anything other than what they run now with a carb.

having said that BB asked the factory last week for some jetting figures and got told 180MJ so i'm concerned that they allow the cleaner to answer the phone and play 'what's my line'.

whatever lean setting they have had to do to get through emmisions with a carb - the Fi will have the same problems.

i don't think we'll see any improvement anywhere. it's not a step forward - it's a step sideways and peopple are being conned into believing it.

Fi i'll tell you the only thing Fi is good for and it's UNRELATED COMPLETELY. YOU CAN LAY THE CYLINDER FLAT AND GET GOOD CARBURATION. THAT'S WHAT fI IS GOOD FOR.

regards

Taffy

Well Taffy,

We obviously disagree on this point, and whatever the outcome, the proof will be in the pudding. I suppose the first test will see on this subject will be on the RMZ 450.

By the way, I hope your new job with Sherco works out great for you. I doubt they know what an asset they have acquired in hiring you. Best of luck!

Re: RE:

faktor said:

I notice the new bike 2009 450 has a compression ratio of 11.9:1 where the 2008 Berg 450 has a compression ratio of 13:1.
This difference in lowering the compression ratio can only be a good thing I would think.

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Good point!!! I can really notice the higher comp on my 450 compared to my old 550 via engine braking! Was thinking of fitting a slipper clutch? But very expensive.
I love the new Berg!!!! Its just beautiful!!!! ( a little Sherpa like, but that looks good too)
I reckon they will find it very hard to sell 08 Bergs tho??
Scully

RE: Re: RE:

dale

it's not a problem and it's always good to talk.

there are dealers here that know far more about Fi than me but given that all three sherco enduro models ever made are Fi i'd better start learning fast!

regards

Taffy

Taff, DaleEO,

I think you are both essentially right, but arguing over the details. Yes, Taff is right that a carbed bike could be jetted to work as good as an FI bike. But, that does not necessarily make a carb better.

One FI characteristic that needed to be overcome during development is weight. Carb Vs. FI, carb wins in the weight category.

Power - could be nearly the same, but FI will always win due to custom power output (due to more precise control of fuel and spark).

Efficiency - FI always wins. Precise, controlled fuel delivery. Plus, you only supply fuel when the engine wants it (aka, every other revolution, versus every revolution with a carb). Off throttle, no fuel with FI(except low RPM's), fuel still delivered with a carb.

Ease of use - I think, in the long run, FI will win this category. Once the old carb guys realize that, unless something is busted with a specific component (TPS, MAP, injector, etc...), you'd never ever touch an FI bike other than to plug in the cable for the computer. As far as time to make a change, FI wins. If you are going to argue having to make a change "on the trail", you're just arguing for arguing sake at that point. We almost always make changes in the "pits".

# of bits to break category - Carb wins hands down. There are simply fewer bits to break. But, this is an evolution thing. 20 years ago, I would agree that FI was sketchy. Now, all the bugs have been ironed out (otherwise we'd still see a kickstarter!)

Kickstarter - If you think it is still needed, why haven't they been used on street bikes for the past 20 years?!?!?!?

Cost - Carb wins, but I think it will change over time. Fuel pumps and injectors cost good loot, but with things getting more and more standardized, this will change (IMHO).

Re: altitude compensation. The map sensor does this automatically. This cannot ever be done with a carb (easily, that is).

Taff, all due respect, let the carb go. A carb simply can't win in the long run.

-Parsko



A VERY short/simple explanation of how FI works.

There is a 3d fuel map. X-Y axis are RPM and pressure, the Z is (basically) time (length of time the injector is open). Given RPM and MAP readings, the computer will "compensate" (or not!) the time depending on all other inputs (TPS, altitude, temperature, speed, etc..) So, the "time" will go through some post-processing to get some new value which will get it closer to what the manufacturer (or rider) dictates it should be given current conditions.

The Highland 450 MX weighs 103 Kg. Husaberg have still got some work on the to do list...

Smorgasbord said:

The Highland 450 MX weighs 103 Kg. Husaberg have still got some work on the to do list...

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:laughing3:

The Highland 450MX is a paper tiger...

My Husaberg weighs 105 Kg. (On paper.)
2 Kg more than the Highlander. 8O