Main bearing gone, Motoberg 650

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F

FinnBerg

Joined
Sep 8, 2007
Messages
18
Location
Finland
I have Berg -05 650E with supermoto setup, 12hrs when I bought it, now 19hrs and clutch side main bearing gone.Clutch case was also damaged in point where oil is fed into the crank..crank head left skid marks to clutch case oil channel.When you shake the crank head you'll find huge radial play..I hope the crank is not twist, engine is not yet completely in pieces so can't tell.

Can someone of you gurus say if it is any help to increase amount of oil ( build extra oil tank), or install oil cooler? Weld the rod pin? I'm becoming very desperate when reading about all those main bearing failures..I have plans to fit roller clutch side and ball to ignition side, is that good set up?

I only use my Berg at tarmac, I guess that is explains a lot of that breakdown.Oils have been changed after every ride.

PS. I could install an other clock to my bike and then compare riding times and service times..
Quite easy to guess which ones are longer!
 
double ester oil

make sure you run a double ester oil, like Motul 300V
 
RE: double ester oil

I use Bel-Ray 4T Thumper racing 20W-50, that is what I was recommended to use.
It is semisynthetic, but I really can't tell if it is double ester.What is the magic behind the double esters?By the way,is there different oil quality demands for roller and ball bearings?

Maybe the quality of oil is not the issue, but overall bad design of the crank..?That is my beginners opinion.
 
RE: double ester oil

I aggree FinnBerg with overall bad design of the crank and to put my slant it crank cases and bearing fit....
 
Re: RE: double ester oil

faktor said:
I aggree FinnBerg with overall bad design of the crank and to put my slant it crank cases and bearing fit....
Click to expand...
+ 1` on the oil issue. I dont think it matters a toss within reason, I use Rx Super and there are plenty using Delo 400 ( unless they have the double ester thingy) without a drama.
Out of interest Factor what oil do you run?
 
FinnBerg said:
Can someone of you gurus say if it is any help to increase amount of oil ( build extra oil tank), or install oil cooler? Weld the rod pin? I'm becoming very desperate when reading about all those main bearing failures..I have plans to fit roller clutch side and ball to ignition side, is that good set up?

I only use my Berg at tarmac, I guess that is explains a lot of that breakdown.Oils have been changed after every ride.

PS. I could install an other clock to my bike and then compare riding times and service times..
Quite easy to guess which ones are longer!
Click to expand...

I was going to post a similar thread. I too have a motarded 05 FE 650 that is pretty much only street-driven but all these main bearing issues are starting to get scary. :evil:
I've read all the threads ad nauseum but some of these guys are talking way over my comprehension...All I really want to know is it a bearing quality issue or a crank issue, and more importantly, is there something that we can do about it?
Lou.
 
Re: RE: double ester oil

FinnBerg said:
I use Bel-Ray 4T Thumper racing 20W-50, that is what I was recommended to use.
It is semisynthetic, but I really can't tell if it is double ester.What is the magic behind the double esters?By the way,is there different oil quality demands for roller and ball bearings?

.
Click to expand...

The 650 Berg manual specifically states that a fully synthetic oil must be used.

Double ester oils are quite different to normal fully synthetics, they are superior to complex ester that has previously been recognized the best base oil for engine oil up to now. Double ester technology is made by carefully balancing the ratio of complex ester and the newly developed macromolecular high polymer ester,which is supposed to deliver high output performance and superior reliability with 0% shear loss resulting in high oil film maintenance and oil pressure preservation qualities.

I know of a Dutch rallye team that have used 650's for rallye racing for over 4 years now with not a single blown engine or bearing. They swear by the Motul 300V.

Get a litre and have a look, its not like normal synthetic oil, looks and feels quite different.

My FE650 just did 5,500 km over 9 days of which 3,000km was on bitumen transport sections (ave 110-120 kph) and the rest full on off road rallye racing (up to 170 kph). The motor never missed a beat and looks barely run in.
 
I use Motul 300v it smells like bubble gum.

as for main bearings i think the 650 mains are to small in circumference. just compare them with a yamaha WR 450 ( see pics put up by WEED ) I'm sure the cases of a 650 could be machined out to accept bigger mains
I will do further research when my 650 pops 8O
 
Thanks SafariBerg for your very thorough and pro answer.I think I'll have a go with Motul
when the engine is rebuild.

If your bike survived so long and heavy transport sections without problems I think your ideas are worth listening to!So far I have inderstood that long engine lifes are possible only in
enduro or motocross where throttle usage and thus engine loading is very different.

BR

FinnBerg
 
in my opinion finnberg,if the collar of the main bearing inner is broken off (which is usually the case)thats no fault of the oil,if the rollers are worn or where the rollers run on the main bearing inner is pitted and worn,this is because of oil quality or lack of oil.
the crank end float is critical,and this is what causes the main bearing inner to break off.
too much end float, or too little end float,the same problem will occur,different sorts of oil will not make any difference.
pull it apart and send us pictures of what you found.
..weed..
 
Finnb erg

we aren't 100% sure and we are doing our best to get to the bottom of the problem.

you can help us though if you so wish!

we need to know the housing ID? these are measured to microns and i have put the figures in the main bearing thread you have read. we also could do with you fitting new bearings and an arbor check for main bearing alignment. the third figure is the OD of the crank journals?

this would help us tremendously to get to the bottom of the problem. oil quality doesn't appear to be the problem but
here is a list which others will argue over!

oil not getting to bearings
imncorrect endfloat
bearing housing ID is too tight
crank journal too large
resonance of crank due to the balancer system.

the cure MUST be a proper effort by you to get it right in the most difficult engine and formula! the 650 engine and in SM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i hope you'll help!

in return we can say that the best way forward is to go back to a single row balancer and the 20mm wide roller bearing. the end float is recommended variously as .2mm by lineaweaver up to 1mm by enginehardwear! the factory have gone for .65mm

why not give them a call? they recommend a full 1mm endfloat though.

i believe that the shoulders of the bearings only break off at the point of failure and maximum vibration in the engine. so i think that the .2-.65mm would be the right guess.

BUT WE LACK REAL INFORMATION AND I HOPE YOU'LL JOIN THE UHE COMMUNITY IN ADDING INFO.

maybe you can borrow an arbor from the swedes?

best of luck

Taffy
 
I drive with a 650 FSE 2004 120 hrs 50% competition/street use, then the main blew.
Now 100% competiton use
I think the bouncing of the rear wheel has a negative effect on the main.
I lost the balancer and increased the "squish" by 0,1mm (lower Compression) less bearing forces
After 9 hrs still clean oil :lol:, using Motul 300V, 111hrs to go. Jiiiiihaaaaaaaaaaa
 
Taffy said:
in return we can say that the best way forward is to go back to a single row balancer and the 20mm wide roller bearing.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but that isn't even an option.

[techie mode on]

The single and double row balancers are of exactly the same width - about 12mm.

Therefore you don't get an extra 4mm to play with with a single balancer and therefore you can't fit a wider bearing.

1. You never ever want to go back to using the 650 counter balancer weight with the single row bearing,

2. You might, but with risks put in a lighter c/b weight from, for example, the 400 on a single row bearing.

3. You might remove the c/b altogether and fit a wider bearing.

[techie mode off]

The simplest solution I believe is to just remove the counter balancer unit and re-install the crank using the old c/b inner races as a spacer.

For more comfort you might want to arrange for a crank rebalance.

If using your bike for sm one thing I have been doing for years is add about 250ml of oil so you have about 1250ml in total. Then if you get oil mist going back into your carb (notice I said if) simply vent the breatherinto a catch tank sat on the frame. The catch tank can be anything from a coke bottle to an old beer can, it doesn't matter.

All the best,
Simon
 
i believe that engine hardwear have done just such a thing and such is what i meant. i didn't go into detail but yes a 400 lightweight balancer can be fitted with some effort.

regards

Taffy
 
I personally see no value in the amount of effort required to fit a wider bearing and lighter counterbalancer - nor do I see how anyone can get the extra 4mm without some derious drawbacks elsewhere. In my humble opinion that is.

I think it is a no-brainer.

All the best,
Simon
 
well i've seen it and i have the SP on it. it works and the riders preffered it to having no c/b at all.

regards

Taffy
 
Thanks all for your support and advice.

I will finally split the engine during weekend, and measure the current
end float of course first before that.I will add pics of broken bearing etc.
to my gallery, and try to measure the things Taffy mentioned.
( I don't have very good tools for that yet, have to borrow)

There seem to be lot of beliefs and theories how one should rebuild
the berg engine, and I'm getting quite confused especially with that
end float issue..;-)Hope to get it right for first time!

I try reveal as much data&things as possible to help all that struggle
with these main bearings.

PS. I have more or less similar catch can system what Simon mentioned because
I like to slightly overfill my Berg, and then it is better to catch the possible
extra oil (mist) to can than feed it to carb!Will add pictures of that as well.
 
you could take it to an engineer and have it all measured in under 30 minutes. what will he charge you? E15 surely it's worth it?

also finn. your endfloat in a destroyed engine doesn't count.

good luck

regards

Taffy
 

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