Is the sprag clutch slipping?

I have a FE650 -03 with a E-start problem. (I´ll guess that must be a surprise to you all :wink: )
Anyway, I have installed an extra battery under the seat and first tried to run it parallell to the original battery. To start with this actually work once and a while, but after a while the starter power could not master the compression stroke. Luckily a adjustment of the valve made this work again, hence no problem with the auto decompressor.
The thing is that the weak re-start system do not crank the engine fast enough to fire it up every time (100%).
Now, I think most of us would like the e-start to work every try. So I connected the batteries in series instead. When a first tried (the bike was not fully assembled) the 24 V on the stater it made me smile . I just had to se it again so I pushed the button once again.....wrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
The fly wheel just did some shaking and the bike made a sound similar to a racheting wrench on freewheel.

The question is: Is the sprag clutch slipping?
I read some subjects about slipping sprags here but no one mentioned is there was any noise.

Is it possible to sand blaster (or similar) the mating races of sprag clutch in order to increase friction?

This is the first time I write in a forum, so I hope you all have some patience with me

The Sprag Clutch slipping that I have encountered produced no unusual noises. The starter just spins and nothing happens. No ratcheting sound.

If the starter shaft spun on the gear I could see where it may sound like a ratchet.

I would listen carefully and try to pinpoint where the sound is coming from. Is it where the starter goes into the engine cases?

Have you ever removed the starter?
Are the starter bracket bolts loose?
Is the starter centered and not cocked to one side?

Thank you for your reply Husabutt!
This was actually the reson for the question! Since nobody mentioned this sound I was afraid something else was wrong.
I have never removed the starter and not checked the bracket bolts.
Is it possible to adjust the bracket for a better line up?
I recall a statment on a swedish dealers homepage that a 1mm? washer could be used for better start function or something like that ...
The problem is that this guy do not work for the same company anymore and the statment is removed from the homepage
Is this something mentioned on this forum? I´ve not seen it.

I better not touch the start botton until I figured this out :cry:

I have never seen a post refering to shimming the starter and starter alignment is not a common issue.

There is some adjustment (play) in where the bracket could position the starter.

Ok!
Actually I found the statement on the homepage. (Was looking at the wrong location)
It said (translated from swedish)
"E-start problem Husaberg
Put a 1mm washer behind the stator and it will move further out"
Then it doesn´t say anymore. :?
Does this mean that the e-starter is axially not reaching the gear properly?
Or perhaps the bending force of the e-start shaft will decrease?
Any ideas?

Time for me to bring out the toolbox. Planning to ride tomorrow so tonight it will some serious tool fighting :evil:

It said (translated from swedish)
"E-start problem Husaberg
Put a 1mm washer behind the stator and it will move further out"
Then it doesn´t say anymore.
Does this mean that the e-starter is axially not reaching the gear properly?
Or perhaps the bending force of the e-start shaft will decrease?
Any ideas?

Hi BM36!
I think that you may have entered a little trap of the language; Stator is the spinny sparky thing on the right end of the crank, while starter is the spinny starty thing under the carb.
Dave Larssen first made us aware of the stator shimming issue. Many of the stators do not fully engage the flywheel and therefore do not give full spark output at low cranking speeds. On the small displacement bikes this isn't much of an issue since they spin fast enough to make the spark good in spite of clearance. The 600/650 is particularly sensitive to it because they barely spin fast enough under the best of conditions. If the bike kick starts well but won't electric start and you are sure that your battery and starter are ok then shim the stator. It will probably cure your bike.
Now it's time to enter a minefield; Oil type and your starter sprag. In our experience, we have cured most of our sprag slipping problems by going to basic pure petroleum based oils such as TORCO T4 10/40 (non MPZ). Thicker and tricker oils can make the sprag slip. We have seen zero lubrication related failures in our Husabergs and KTM thumpers when using motorcycle specific petroleum oils. Normal wear consistant with mileage, sure, but not lubrication. More slippery is not always better, espcially in an engine that has rolling element bearings in all of it's high load areas. I will not respond to the synthetic :roll: cult's criticism of this point, so please save your time.
Sorry if I mis-spelled your name Dave!

I found out that it actually was my sprag clutch slipping! The starter and connecting gear looked just fine
I didn´t fire it up with the starter when cold, but when warm 100% 8)
I even talked to a dealer concerning the 1mm washer behind the stator, he said if you had trouble with bad starting this might be a good solution. :?:
My curiosity made me open my starter and there where already three shim behind the stator one thick ~0.5mm and two thinner ~0.1mm. I don´t know how another washer would help, perhaps it does, but I didn´t try.
The part I need is a new freewheel and maybe a the inner race "thing" the dealer told me.
Still I wonder if it is a possibility to do some "sand blasting" in order to increase friction! :?:

Please read alans post again the STATOR has nothing to do with the STARTER they are totataly different items the inside of a STARTER has a ARMATURE this takes the electricity and turns your engine dont sand blast the clutch your only cure is to replace usually all the parts or machine the indents off the outer ,replace the spraggs and machine and weld a new clutch inner slighty wider than the standard one- a lot of work to save what could be a lot of money the slipping spragg clutch does some tikes make a noise as alan said first try a different oil

Ok!
I see i might have missunderstood the the tip from the dealers homepage. Since it concerned the e-starter I thought it meant the stator OF the e-starter motor. Now, the stator of the e-starter is actually a permanent magnet and the anchor or rotor (don´t know the english word) was the thing a first thought of
Anyway, I have ordered new freewheel and the middle knob, so I´ll guess I will find out this week how it will work when cold.
At least the 24V worked every time when hot. 8)

Problem solved!

Now when I got the answer of my problem I know that I should have listened more to husabutt´s reply . Without any deeper analysis I bought a new free wheel. Changing the free wheel made no differens.
The mechanical wrrrrrrr sound was actually caused by my original battery. Two batteries in series would be fine even if not 100% I thought.
Given the whole thing a second thought I found out that the low resistance of the e-starter motor (almost short circuit when enabling) in combination with a weak first battery makes the relay grip, let go,grip, let go, grip...
in a relay high frequency hence the wrrrrrrrrrr sound. A new Yuasa YTZ7S solved the problem.
Now starts when cold on e-start 8) 8)

There are already a few who swear by running the starter motor on 24V. There threads on this in the electrical section.

BundyBear said:

There are already a few who swear by running the starter motor on 24V. There threads on this in the electrical section.

Click to expand...

I did some searches of the 24V solution in this forum, but could not find anything about "burning starters" or any other toasted electrics. The 24V solution was given to me from a guy who supplied weak car starters with 24V in the 70´s. This worked really good. I´ll guess if I don´t e-crank the h*ll :evil: out of the bike, it will be fine. So far so good
Since the SEM needs speed to fire up and the autodecomp design is a laughter, this is a good solution. If my starter has to got to e-starter heaven I´ll replace it with a 04/05 and use 12V.

I've been reading this thread with great interest, in the last month or so my 550 starter will not engage long enough to start the bike when she is cold, when warmed up no problem.....my battery has been dead acouple times in its life thus far.....it used to start cold, I didn't realize that a battery goin south will cause the disengage symptom.....learn something new everyday....Thanks BM36

I have had large problems with my Ducati 888SP5 e-starter sprag. Due to high compression, rather high ignition at idling and poor battery, the crank tended to flip backwards. This made the sprag internals to "flip over", if you know what I mean. Disaster for the sprag clutch! I wouldn't be surpriced if 24V on a 12V e-starter could cause the same problem.

In Supermono, a lot of teams use starter rollers, with a car e-starter run on 24V. But I'm sure the over voltage will decrease life of the e-starter.

Sorry about not being spot on the topic. As I'm recovering my broken tendon, there not so much else to do. :wink:

/Dr_C

Most of the worry was whether the sprag was up to it, not whether the starter would fry.

Here are most of the the threads from before:
Thread 1, Thread 2, Thread 3, Thread 4, Thread 5, Thread 6

My sprag, while quite different to yours cause my bike is an older one with the balancer in front of the engine, has locked up once before. So I could use the bike I pulled out the intermediate starter gear & used the kicker. When I came back from the ride the sprag seemed to have freed itself so I put the gear back in & have used it for at least a year since.

Now that you mention it the sprag locked up when the battery was nearly flat & couldn't crank the enging properly.

Dr_C said:

Due to high compression, rather high ignition at idling and poor battery, the crank tended to flip backwards. This made the sprag internals to "flip over", if you know what I mean. Disaster for the sprag clutch! I wouldn't be surpriced if 24V on a 12V e-starter could cause the same problem.
/Dr_C

Click to expand...

I'll guess the 24V will be helpful if you are talking about backfire. If your starter runs strongly and the engine build up momentum the piston will most likely pass TDC without any "pre ignition"

Since I didn´t think over my problem I replaced a fully working sprag , and has therefore one as spare

But as I said, i don´t think I´ll get more backfires 24V and the Husa sprag looks rather strong to me. I´ll guess it might slip but not "flip over"