E Start is stalling

Penguin74q · Jul 1, 2004

I have a 2002 E-Start 501. Until recently, the starter motor has disengaged and free-wheeled after cranking several turns. Since it has always been an easy starter, that has not been a problem. Recently, it has refused to start cold ( ambient temp of 70F ) or hot with the magic buttton. It usually turns over until it comes up in compression and then stalls the starter motor. However, it will start on the 1st or 2nd kick. I have just replaced the cam and rollers after the intake roller failed and started to scuff the cam. I flushed all of the roller debris out of the sump. The oil was changed after the 1st ride (3 hours) and the filter and screen were both clean. I've cleaned and checked the battery connections and the battery is new.Is it possible that some of the roller detritus infected the starter drive and is jamming the release mechanism?

Taffy · Jul 1, 2004

penguin

not entirely sure what you're saying but can i say that if you try to start the bike and the starter just 'rolls through' and keeps 'missing the hook' then your sprague bearing needs replacing.

it's a relatively easy task although not cheap. you'll need to remove the clutch cover and clutch mechanism. using internal pin nosed pliers you need to remove a circlip and out comes the old one.

i also replaced a tiny tiny needle bearing that sits inside the wheel. very cheap so i thought i would.

i'm getting through 1 per season of racing but i have no kickstart.

you may also have a slight decomp problem in which case you may need to look at the cam timing again or the decomp lobe is getting very worn.

regards

Taffy

twistthethrottle · Jul 1, 2004

It does sound decomp related. Hate to ask the obvious, have you checked the valve clearances?

When you replaced the cam was the decomp arm also replaced? As Taffy said if it is the old one it could be worn. Also if it is a new, it may not be adjusted correctly.

The valve timing is also a potential cause and worth checking.

BundyBear · Jul 1, 2004

Does anyone think type/grade of oil makes much difference to how well the sprags work?

twistthethrottle · Jul 1, 2004

As the sprague clutch operates through friction I am sure that the oil does make a difference.
I would suspect most of the impact comes from the difference in the viscosity between hot and cold and the resulting load on the clutch rather than the oil directly affecting the friction in the clutch.

Like most of the estart system, its just a bit too small for the job.

Mitchie · Jul 2, 2004

I get a similar problem at times. When my bike is hot it usually starts on the button but now and again (usually when its most required) it just turns a little and locks just like the battery has no power, usually 2 or 3 tries and it turns over and starts. The next time its stopped it will just fire up on the button again. Any ideas, the only thing I could think of is if the bike is really hot could there be something expanding and locking up ????

All your years of wisdom appreciated.

Mitch..........

twistthethrottle · Jul 2, 2004

Mitchie, its just compression that is stopping your bike from turning over.
The obvious things to check first is the condition of the battery and valve clearances. After that its most likely a worn or incorrectly adjusted decomp lobe.

Penguin74q · Jul 2, 2004

I just finished resetting the valves. I had set them previously with a feeler guage. This time I used the 1/8 turn method. It seems that trying to wedge a feeler guage into that damned small access hole resulted in too much valve clearance. I checked the auto de-comp on the cam and it looks to be fine- no visible wear. The engine started right up with the e start and restarted several times when warm, and then started stalling. I think that the battery had discharged enough that it is losing voltage somewhere on the ground side. Next, I'll try running a extra ground wire from the battery direct to the engine

t-jet-tim · Jul 2, 2004

Since I put a battery tender on my bike when it is
sitting, it has e-started every time.

Taffy · Jul 2, 2004

most of you know my only decomp is the manual setting. i have filed the leading edge (see gallery) and it works well. they're right, it is the compression that locks the engine.

you need to pull the manual decomp to free up the engine to get it going.

Taffy

BundyBear · Jul 4, 2004

Penguin - Couple of tests to do before heavy wiring mods:

Set a multimeter to read volts & connect it directly across the battery terminals. Read the voltage while while the starter is spinning the engine and not locked up against a compression. If it falls below about 8 volts the battery is either low in charge or is getting crook.

If the first test comes up OK then put the red voltmeter lead on the body of the starter & the black lead directly on the battery negative terminal (ie directly across the starter ground path). Check the reading while cranking as before. If you see about 1 to 1Ã‚Â½ volts or less then there is bugger all improvement to be gained by adding a ground lead directly between the battery & starter. If you do see a more than this then you likely have a poor connection from the battery to the frame.

Scully · Jul 7, 2004

Penguin

It's always a good idea to check the valves first if there is a starting problem, they dont take long to tighten up.
The only way to check the auto-decomp "properly" is to place a dial indicator in the valve inspection hole and check the lift is greater than 30thou. I have just replaced my mechanism so I have been thru all this recently. You wont see the worn cam lobe "properly" with the naked eye.
My bike "free-spins" when cold to???Its ok when hot?? Dont know why, but these sprague clutches dont seem to last very long anyway?

twistthethrottle · Jul 7, 2004

Anyone know if the 04 model has a different sprague clutch?

With the improved starting and bigger starter motor on the 550/650 I would imagine the 03 and older sprague wouldn't be up to the job.

Taffy · Jul 7, 2004

your right twist, trouble is where do they fit it? you can't get a *** paper down the edges even now!

i think most of you know i'm running manual decomp with no auto at all. and of course no kickstart so when i'm knackered - i'm knackered!!!!!

as soon as my bike has been started once it doesn't need any decomp at the bars: it just starts up by ploughing through the compression. i intend to utilise this when racing because having full comp and still turning the engine is great.

now another thing twist is that even when you get the 'follow through noise' you still get a bump or 5 through the manual decomp? so although it has 'missed' it still turns the engine. it could be rolling backwards i suppose?

if it would only stop doing this when cold i'd be on a winner but i keep getting left high and dry. i can't understand what difference a warm engine REALLY makes?

the difference is light and day. the new #80 starter jet is absolutely on the nail though and onight after re-checking the valve timing and rolling the bike here and there, needle in and out it rolled through 4 times and then caught almost on fumes. splendid effort!

Taffy

twistthethrottle · Jul 7, 2004

I'm fairly confident that if my sprague clutch would hold when the engine is cold that I could rely on the estart 100% of the time.
It was starting cold just after fitting the new sprague but over a few months it deteriorated.
Maybe building up the centre drum of the sprague by a few thou would solve the problem.

BundyBear · Jul 7, 2004

Twistie
Unless the sprags are going over centre (as mine does sometimes) then a larger diameter centre (or smaller outer race, or longer sprags) would make the slipping worse. The sprags depend on a fairly specific coeficient of friction to self lock. This friction must put enough initial tangential force on the end of the sprags to make them "stand up". Standing them up generates a higher radial force on the races which in turn allows a greater increase in tangential force. The tangential force is what locks the clutch, but you need sufficient initial friction to generate it. That is why I asked earlier if different oils (hence different levels of friction) affects the clutch slipping problem.

Going smaller on the centre race, but not to the point where the sprags go over centre, would help stop slipping as it increases the radial force for the same tangential force. Unfortumately the difference in dimensions from slipping to going over centre is minute.

E Start is stalling

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