2003 SEM stator into 2004 Kokusan CDI electrics

I am the proud owner of self destructed 2004 650 (valve into piston, bent rod, smashed cylinder liner etc etc.) but hey I got it cheap. I have just purchased a very low hour 2003 650 motor with all the eletrics and I have it running in the 2004 frame.
I'd like to use the 2004 electrics as much as I can so I want to wire up the 2003 SEM stator to the 2004 CDI.
On the 2004 stator and pick up coil I have identified 6 wires in total (4 to the CDI and 2 to the rectifier/regulator)
On the 2003 SEM stator there are also 6 ( but 3 to the CDI and 3 to the rectifier regulator).
So far I have
Green 2003 pick up = green 2004
Red 2003 charging coil 200V AC = red 2004
Black 2003 is ground wire
2 x Yellow and Blue on 2003 are the 12 V AC(3 wires to regulator 2003) = yellow and white on the 2004 (only 2 to regulator 2004)

So am I correct in assuming that
Black on 2003 = black/red on 2004 as the earth for the 2004 CDI and
One of the yellow 2003 = red/white that goes from the 2004 stator.

I dont want to fry my Kokusan CDI so any help comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Anthony

Hi Anthony
I would say no being as they are from two different sources. As I have found in the past with some cdi electrics incompatability is the cause of sudden death. You will need to be sure that all values are equal, But again I would say no and try to get a cdi to match the engine.What you are facing is a common sort of problem when doing engine swaps out of different models.

Cheers Eric

Thanks Eric,

I can possibly search for the resistance values but that only tells you what is in the circuit thats being read on the meter not what should be fed into it.
Alternatively I can run my 2005 and take readings on my simple meter and compare these to what I get with the 2003 running with all its original electrics but this is a crude check and definetly not a signal analysis via oscilliscope.
What would be great would be a stator that fits into a 2003 position that has all the same outputs as the 2004 stator and pick up coil.
Again thanks for the help, always appreciated.

Hi Antony

I can't realy understand what you want, but you can't mix any parts of the two systems.

They work in different ways and to start the kokusan has one pickup system and the SEM don't.

For you to use the kokusan in the 2003 you have to make a new cover, one that you can fix the pickup coil on, and you might have to change the flywheel to perfect fit the crank journal and make a new place for the woodruff key depending on the place were you are going to put the pickup coil.

I also have one kokusan system waiting for me to have the guts to start the job :mrgreen:

:cheers:
ZAGA

I think you should found SEM CDI and mount it to your new 2003 with SEM ignition.

Was this 2003 running when you pick it up?

You should test also the SEM stator values with ohmeter.
Readings should be:
Red-Black 3 kOhm +/-10%
Green-Black 168 Ohm +/-10%
If readings are out of this values you shoul look also for stator rewound.

Thanks for the replies.

I have spent some time fabricating a conversion plate for the 2003 motor to run full 2004 electrics (flywheel, stator and Kokusan CDI and coil pack). My findings after somewhat succesfully fabricating a test conversion plate from 5mm ply to test the alignment of cover holes etc are;

1. Assuming the keyway is in the same place on a 2003 and 2004 crank the 2004 flywheel fits a 2003 crank and sits in approximately the same position out from the motor when looking at the end of the crank possibly 1/2 mm further in but thats it (1 and a bit threads on 2004 crank showing when 2004 flywheel bolted up and 2 threads when on the 2003 crank)
2. edge of the 2003 casing is further out on the flywheel which pushes the 2004 cover further away from the flywheel (bad) the stator could be spaced back into the flywheel sufficiently to be in exactly the correct position with 7mm of washers (this was only a test and yes a more robust spacer would need to be designed (easy lathe work). This meant that with a 2004 flywheel bolted to a 2003 crank I could get the stator in the correct location depth wise using a 2004 cover . If I used 9mm of spacers the inner face on the stator pack rubbed on the flywheel.
3. the only thing left then was to get the pick up coil aligned with the flywheel and this is where I failed. I initially mounted the pick up on the outer surface of the conversion plate so that the plate would completely seal between the 2003 case and the 2004 cover but on a quick inspection this left the pick up 10mm out of alignment with the flywheel.
4. I then looked to position the pick up with its backing plate directly against the outer edge of the 2003 cases and in this position the pick up is still 5-6mm to far out to align.
5. Solutions? the 2003 case could be milled back 5-6mm to allow the pick up coil to sit recessed back in towards the engine (as in the 2004 psition) but then how do you seal off this horizontal hole in the case? Or a spacer could be made to mount the flywheel 5-6mm further out on the 2003 crank and this would then require 5-6mm being taken off the face that the crank nut bolts up to. Both the milling of the cases and subsequent sealing of the hole or the manufacture of a crank spacer and whether having a flywheel rotating 5-6mm further out from its "normal position was beyond my workshop abilities.
In summary (again assuming that the keyway is in the same spot on both cranks) a convesion plate can be fabricated to use a 2004 cover to bolt up to a 2003 engine and the stator can be spaced back away from the cover to be in the correct location BUT its the locating of the pick up coil that is the biggest hurdle.

So I am now leaving the Sem stator, flywheel, coil/ignition pack, Hi/Lo switch and rectifier in place and wiring these into a 2004 switch blocks. Nearly completed hopefully start it tonight.

I hope this helps out someone contemplating the same task.

Regards

Anthony.

Hi

Here are some posts about this subject, it might give you some ideas

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15611&p=129331&hilit=kokusan#p129331

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15950&p=131904&hilit=kokusan#p131904

If you want send me your mail and I can also send you some pictures.

Anyway I'm interested in knowing your final result if you don't mind.

:cheers:
ZAGA

Hi again

Can you fit the 04 flywheel in to the crank and take a pict for me to see where that outside metal strip is with the engine on TDC.

:cheers:
ZAGA

Hey Zaga,

I have know spliced in the 2003 motor and sem ignition, stator and coil pack into the 2004 standard wiring on the bike and have the motor running at idle and some throttle (cloth and zip tie for aircleaner). So I think it will run fine when its all back together.

The only real change is that I have wired up the bike to run the lights and indicators on DC as the AC outputs from the 2003 stator (yellow yellow blue) are wired straight into the rectifier/regulator so I didn't mess about with that at all. The only negative being that I will have to run the HI/LO map switch on the bars as the 2004 model did not have the need for the Hi/Lo switch.

Hey also, no problem with the pictures of the crank position and the metal strip at tdc it may be a few days though as I have a bit on at the moment.

I will also add some pictures of the plywood mock up conversion plate and how it was to fitted to the 2003 crankcases.

Regards,

Anthony

Hi

Great job !! From what I know you are the 3rd guy to do it. But the others done it with ktm ignition systems. So BERG to BERG, I think you are the first.

Why do you need the HI/LOW, only for the starter right ? You can use a simple kill switch to do it.

I sure will like to see pictures :bounce:

:cheers:
ZAGA

Hi all,

A little more information and hopefully a leg up for anybody else attempting the project. Please see photos that I hope are self explanatory

Shots of 2003 motor with original SEM flywheel with motor at TDC[attachment=2:rapmfhel]Photo of 2003 SEM flywheel motor at TDC.jpg[/attachment:rapmfhel][attachment=1:rapmfhel]2004 flywheel on 2003 crank at TDC metal strip at 9 o'clock.jpg[/attachment:rapmfhel][attachment=0:rapmfhel]2004 flywheel on 2003 crank at TDC metal strip at 9 o'clock shot 2.jpg[/attachment:rapmfhel]

Sorry that the shots are so restricted but I had to keep cutting them down to fit (read:monumental pain in the #$%&).
I tried to keep some bolt holes in the shot to give some idea of the location. I am happy to send you the full shots in all there detail just send my an email address.

Regards to All.

Anthony

Hi Anthony

On the first photo that you have with the SEM flywheel, you say you are on TDC. How did you checked that ??
Those line should have been to the left of the srew hole of the casing.

About the 2004 flywheel, if thats on TDC, your pick up coil will need to be just before the metal strip at TDC, so it will be in a very low position. I think you might have to change a bit the flywheel.

Just some thoughts.

My mail is [email protected]

:cheers:
ZAGA

Hi Zaga,

Checked tdc the old way with a screwdriver down the plug hole !
There is a few degrees of crank rotation where there is virtually no vertical piston movement and this is the position the crank is in for the photos.

The main problem remains in positioning the pick up far enough towards the centre of the engine so that it is in alignment with the pick up strip on the flywheel. there are only a few options.
1. move the flywheel out with some sort of spacer
2. move the strip out on the flywheel (I have no idea if thats even possible)
3. use a narrower pick up if such a thing exisits
4. machine back the cases to get the pick up back further toward the centre of the engine.

I later thought that if this side of the engine casing could be machined back 6-7mm the pick up would align with the pick up strip and a 7mm thick conversion plate would then position the coils of the stator in exactly the correct spot using the 2004 stator cover. Remembering that my 6-7 mm plywood trial plate bolted on standard cases left the stator 6-7 mm too far out of the flywheel and I spaced then back into the motor with washers.

At this point the splicing of the 2003 motor with 2003 SEm ignition/flywheel/stator/regulator into the 2004 wiring looked like the best option and this has been completed in rough form engine run and is now being tidied up with propoer connectors etc etc.

I'll post more photos if taken. Best of Luck to anybody that wants to go the next step.

Regards,

Anthony.

Hi Anthony

For me the best option would be to move the metal strip, and its not just me, the others that have done that also chosed that option.

About the TDC, those few deg were you think that the piston has no movement is were you have to get it right, because there is, its just very little.

Here are some pict from my galery about it

[attachment=2:1ilv2x1m]Ignit_tim_1.jpg[/attachment:1ilv2x1m]
[attachment=1:1ilv2x1m]Ignit_tim_3.jpg[/attachment:1ilv2x1m]
[attachment=0:1ilv2x1m]Ignit_tim_4.jpg[/attachment:1ilv2x1m]

Here are some gides for the pickup coil position

Husaberg
[attachment=1:1bh9t8fk]Berg_04_ignit_set.jpg[/attachment:1bh9t8fk]

KTM
[attachment=0:1bh9t8fk]Ktm_timing.jpg[/attachment:1bh9t8fk]

Hope it helps
:cheers:
ZAGA