02 650fe not charging battery...

I have checked all my connections and they are tight ( I have not checked under the ground to see if the paint was removed). If I charge it with a battery tender I get about ten starts before the battery goes dead. I just did a 150mile ride and it didn't even save enough juice to turn the battery with the decompression release pulled in. I have heard that if the ground is faulty it will not charge the battery, or that it maybe the stator is going bad. Any help would be appreciated. Adam

Unlikely to be charging windings in the stator, but if you have a multimeter check for >14 volts AC beween blue & yellow charge wires with it running. Disconnect rectifier do same check - should get >20V AC.

Check connections from stator to the rectifier. Check for > 14V DC coming out of rectifier. It is possible your regulator has died shorted out. Disconnect it & repeat this check.

Check wiring & from rectifier to battery. If the system is charging you should see about 14.1V DC or so across the battery with it running.

Post again if you still haven't found the problem.

voltage?

Hey Brad, I never get anywhere near 14 volts when my bike is running, more like 12.6, and if you rev it the voltage goes up to aprox 13? Is this a worry?

Thanx, Brad. I will post back with results as soon as I find someone with a multimeter.

wiring on the Berg

........and I was wondering if anyone has a good wiring diagram for the 2002 models that would include the terminal labels on the rectifier, etc.? It's easy for me to get things mixed up when all the connections are loosed for part removal/cleaning, etc. Brad, I also get lower than 14v from the charging system, and that is with a new stator. I've had alot of trouble keeping my battery charged as well. Thanks for any and all input. BD

charging

BD, what type of charger do you use? You will probably need a new unit that allows a "trickle" charge, aprox less than an amp for aprox 4/5 hours.
I use a model that charges at 350 ma and it takes 4 hours plus when battery is very low. It should say on the battery what time period etc to charge for. ( The above directions are for the "no maintenance" type of battery) These batteries dont like to be charged at a "fast" rate.

ajt - It is well worth buying one, even just a cheapie. They really come in handy chasing electrical problems.


BD & Scully - I saw the same thing (low charging voltage) after repairing my regulator & put it down to a crook diode in the regulator, but from what you both say it was working as designed. These bikes must not ever charge properly from new as less than 13.8V will never bring a battery up to full charge!!!! Less than 13V will barely charge the battery if it was flat. I modified mine to give 14.1V or so. I suspect these regulators were originally designed for lawn mower type engines - they are pretty crude.

I wrote a speel about it in the '98 FE'E charging system document in the downloads area, but I think the charging systems are essentially the same thru to 2004.

The problem is with the regulator, without it the voltage can go higher than 17V DC. When my regulator failed the uncorked stator overcharged the battery so hard it blew the fill caps out of 5 of the cells. The 6th cell had the cap locked in by the hold down strap so it blew the side out of it!

Brad:

Do you think that running the bike with the lights on will increase the charging voltage as is the case with Yamaha YFZ 450? Take a look at this article.


YFZ450 Battery Problems?



Q: I have heard of battery problems with the YFZ450's where it overcharges the battery and then runs poorly. Have you guys heard of this problem and any ways to fix It? And also was it just some of the first ones from Yamaha or is it just a general problem?



Thanks
Mike



A: We're glad you asked this question. There is a lot of confusion about this issue, so we'll give you the straight scoop.



With the help of Jeff at M&M Cycle in Kalamazoo, MI, we have pieced-together the facts.



First of all, there is nothing wrong with the quad or its electrical system. However, it does require special maintenance procedures and riding practices (as does any race machine)



There are two main issues which lead to the YFZ battery problem:



1) The battery itself: The battery is a Dry-cell, sealed battery. Unlike regular batteries, its internal voltage is about 13.5V (as compared to about 12.6V for standard batteries.)

Due to the higher voltage, you need to use a special charger for it. Regular battery chargers will only charge it to about 12.5V max. This is only about 70% of this battery's capacity.

Several companies make the higher voltage chargers, but the recommended one is made by Yamaha. It's called the Opti-mate 3, and is available from any Yamaha parts dealer for about $60.



2) The YFZ is a race quad, pure and simple. However, when trail-riders get ahold of this quad, problems with the battery can occur if they don't follow some procedures Here's why: To maximize Horsepower, the charging system on the YFZ was designed for racing. High RPMs (racing conditions) are required to properly charge the electrical system. The quad was designed this way because electrical charging robs HP. For racers, there is no problem (reported), but for trail riders there may be. When you're out trail riding, high RPMs are usually not the norm. Plus, the electric cooling fan is often in use due to the low speeds. This fan runs right off the battery. The combination of the fan and low RPMs results in the battery draining while you ride, and this can result in ignition problems.



So, what can be done about it? Here are some key things to do with the YFZ:



A) It is important that the battery is fully charged to its maximum 13.5V prior to being installed in the YFZ for the first time. If it was not fully charged before installation, that battery may not accept a full charge (ever) due to the battery 'memory'.



B) Never use a standard battery charger. Only use a Yamaha Opti-mate 3 (or equivalent)



C) Only use the Resistor-type Spark Plugs from the factory.



D) When trail riding, if the fan is coming on all the time, turn ON the headlights. By turning on the headlights, the charging system activates and will allow the electrical to keep up with the load of the fan without draining the battery.



E) After trail rides, top-off the battery with the Opti-mate 3 charger. (It comes with a quick-connect plug so it's easy to use frequently)



So, is this a design flaw by Yamaha? No. This quad was design by and for racers and racing conditions. It's the slow, trail-riding conditions which can result in electrical drainage. I wouldn't have though that turning ON the headlights would help with battery drainage, but it does. Yamaha doesn't want to harm the Horsepower by increasing the charging system output, and I hope they don't (for racer's sake). But, maybe in the future, they will offer to sell some sort of 'electrical boost kit' for the slow trail riders to install.



Personally, I commend Yamaha on the overall design of the YFZ450, inside and out. If we've got to turn on the lights to keep the juice up during trail rides, so be it.



-Pro Staff

Another interesting article just posted regarding a factory fix for the YFZ charging problem.



Unique Charging System Characteristics - Yfz450
The YFZ450 Charging System is designed to
supply at low to medium engine rpm a maximum
charging rate with the headlights in the
ON position. Under some conditions (e.g., low
speed with cooling fan running frequently or
continuous high rpm riding), it may be necessary
to ride with the headlights in the ON position
continuously to maintain a fully charged
battery.
If a customer complains of the battery discharging
while riding, first check the condition
of the battery.
NOTE: If improperly charged or boost charged,
these compact batteries could overheat and
become permanently damaged. To prevent
overheating, charge the battery using a low
output charger (e.g., Optimate III, ACCOPTIM-
AT-E3), and test the battery to make
sure it is in good condition. Next, Check the
output of the charging system.
To avoid mis-diagnosis, follow these procedures
and specifications in the order below:
1. Minimum key off (battery voltage must be
12.80 VDC).
• Voltage too low: recharge and load test
the battery.
2. Measure the battery voltage at idle. *It
should be 14.0 ~ 14.9 VDC before the cooling
fan starts to cycle ON and OFF.
• Voltage too low: check the stator coil
resistance. The correct specifications
are:
– Yellow to Ground = 0.22 ~ 0.60 ohms
– White to Ground = 0.29 ~ 0.84 ohms
– Out of Spec: replace stator assembly
• Voltage is too high: check wire continuity
(particularly the black wire which
should have continuity between the
Ground). The Yellow/Red wire should
have continuity between the lighting
coil and the regulator.
NOTE: If continuity checks good, replace the
regulator assembly. (Commonly, both headlights
are burned if the regulator has failed.)
• Voltage Okay:
–
–
–
NOTE: Do not check the battery voltage at
5000 rpm as explained in the Service Manual.
Charging output will decrease as rpm increases.
This is a normal characteristic of this
model.
*Since the system normally discharges anytime
the cooling fan is ON, all testing must be
done before the fan starts to cycle on and off.
Otherwise, the maximum measurable battery
voltage will be lower than 14.0 VDC.
SUBJECTS: 1. Unique Charging System Characteristics - YFZ450
2. Introducing YFZ450 Charging System Resistor Kit -
Resistor Kit for Competition Usage
3. YFZ450 Resistor Kit Installation Instructions

Check the radiator for blockage and
correct as required.
Advise the customer to use the key
switch to turn the engine off. Only
use the engine switch (on the handle
bar) in an emergency.
Advise the customer to switch the
headlights ON to increase the charging
output.
Introducing YFZ450 Charging System Resistor Kit -
Resistor Kit for Competition Usage
Symptom:
As explained in the previous subject (page 1),
the YFZ450 Charging System is designed to
supply at low to medium engine rpm a maximum
charging rate with the headlights
switched to the ON position. If the headlights
are removed for competition use, the unit may
experience battery discharging.
Remedy:
Install the YFZ450 Resistor Kit. The kit contains
a ceramic resistor which takes the place
of the headlights to maximize the charging
rate, plus it provides a higher temperature fan
thermoswitch to minimize current draw. The switch is
located sitting on the bike the upper right switch
NOTE: This higher temperature is still low
enough to not cause engine overheating.
The kit is optional for competition use and warranty
does not apply. The kit was developed to
allow maximum charging and reduce battery
load.
______________

husabutt said:

Do you think that running the bike with the lights on will increase the charging voltage as is the case with Yamaha YFZ 450?

Click to expand...

It is a bit hard to equate what happens on the Yamaha to the 'berg as the regulators are likely very different inside. Depending on its design it is possible that voltage can end up increasing a bit with electrical load, but I would also expect that the cooling fan should draw enough current to do this without the lights.

If the regulator on any machine was designed well there should be no issues around charging voltage no matter how the engine was used. The argument that "it's how it's supposed to be because it's a 'race' machine" always seems to be put forward whenever something doesn't work properly, breaks easily or is a ***** to maintain! :x

Similar to the 'berg, I doubt that the spark system on the Yamaha relies on the 12V system working or even being there. What the hell has a resistor spark plug got to do with charging??? If the Yam uses a YTZxx battery it is not a dry-cell. Sorry to be pissing & moaning about stuff-all.


From what I saw in my regulator I'd expect the voltage to drop to about 13.5V or so by turning the lights on or loading the electrix with a few amps. However I would have also expected that with no electrical load, because of a capacitor in the regulator, as the battery came up to full charge you would tend to lose regulation & the charging voltage would drift way too high (ie 15 or 16V) . I don't think this is what people are actually measuring so I must have got it wrong somewhere.

Just remember, any charging measurements need to be done with the engine spinning reasonably fast, in excess of about 3500RPM. Scully & BD - Was this the case with your measurements?


Anyway, the surest thing to do is throw a multimeter across the battery with it running & measure the difference turning the lights on makes.

OK, I finally was able to borrow a multimeter. Here are my findings, blue and yellow coming from stator 13v ac, red and black headed to battery 13v ac.
Brad is probably right about 13v not being enough to charge from flat-line. When I first got the bike it had been on a trickle-charge it started about 15 times or so before the battery had nothing left, this was while trail riding. The battery never felt like it was charging, it got really weak. It would just click when I hit the button. I went camping and decided that I would check the connection for something simple. The Red/ black and white/blue(? I think) connection was very loose. I completed the connection, and proceeded to ride 100miles. I then tried to start, it just went click. So it didn't charge.
As I type it is trickle-charging in the garage. Hopefully I will be able to ride tomorrow. If so I hope to report back good news.

Ajt:

After the battery is charged let it sit for an hour or so and measure the battery voltage.

If you are using a Battery Tender on a YTZ7S or other MF battery it won't cut it. You need an Opti-Mate III or equivalent.

Optimate link

Regular battery chargers will only charge to 12.5 volts max. This is only 70% (not my math but will assume it is close) of a maintenance free batteries capacity.

It is important that the battery is fully charged to its maximum 13.5V prior to being installed for the first time. If it was not fully charged before installation, that battery may not accept a full charge (ever) due to the battery 'memory'.

If the battery has been run down so many times it may be very sulfated. In that case it will have a very hard time accepting any charge. Buy a new battery or an expensive battery desulfator if you don't get at least 13 volts after charging. It may just do the trick for you.