Taffmeisters DVSK upgrade FOC!

Husa Bergele

Both bikes shredded the shims. Discovered this in next oil change after just 1-2 hours. Decent size flakes that looked like stainless steel and are not magnetic... What are the taffy's shims made of? The shims are gone, but maby this is coming from somewhere else...

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As I have said before on another thread put a 0.1mm shim under a spring is asking for trouble, as if it would make any difference anyway.

Husa Bergele said:

Hello everyone.
I have been searching for a while now and not got definitive answer.

I Have installed Taffy's dvsk kits to 2 -06 FS650 bergs. Both kits came with just the "0,1mm" shim plates. What I had there previously were a lot thicker(Referred as spring retainers (3) in service manual).

Both bikes shredded the shims. Discovered this in next oil change after just 1-2 hours. Decent size flakes that looked like stainless steel and are not magnetic... What are the taffy's shims made of? The shims are gone, but maby this is coming from somewhere else...

Should I have used the thinner ones under the originals?!?


If there is too much packing under springs, the springs get too much compressed and break, valves dont like hitting seats too hard eather?
Too little and valves hit piston?

How can i measure that the valves are opening right amount? I am worried did the springs machine stuff away from cylinder head making springs sit lower? (aluminium casting cant take pressure)


TooLongDidn'tRead: -06 FS650 everything is original.
Can I use original washers under DVSK kit springs instead of provided extremely thin ones, Or do I use them both?

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Hello

I heven't used the 0.1mm shims for - I'm guessing 4-5 years? the 0.2mm shims are fine and I've had no problems at all. if you measure the thickness of the shim you will be able to tell. the SRK shims are 0.25mm and the DSVSK shims are 0.2mm.

if you have used a starter repair kit (SRK) THEY will shred out a shim if a jagged edge to the bolt can rip into the shim and the starter clutch starts slipping. other than that, I've not heard of the 0.2mm shims giving any trouble.

if you care to contact me I will try to advise you.

my second point would be that I gave you instructions with the kit I trust. admittedly, not in your native tongue! but when in doubt surely you should refer to these?

kind regards

Taffy

clive111262 said:

Taff you rebuilt my bike December 2013 with DVS will this be in the said time frame

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Hello Clive

yes it is, as I say I think it is since 2011-2012. I've NEVER heard of a single problem with the 0.2mm shims. I'll hold judgement on the above until it is clearer what happened.

Taff mine were installed Dec 2013 would this still be part of that time frame

Hello Clive

I last fitted the 0.1mm shims in late 2011. you had yours done in December 2013 so the answer is that you have the 0.2mm shims in and have no troubles.

this is why I am mystified by Husa Bergele's comments?

Husa Bergele
it might be that your mains are going? if they are the bike will spit the shims that create your crank float out.

as I say, I have had not one problem with the 0.2mm shims.

regards

Taffy

Taff my DSVK was installed in Dec 2013 does this come into that time frame?

No Clive

regards

Taffy

TY for fast response!
I have now opened cylinder head. The shims were 0,2mm, and they were quite squished and warped. Too much pressure... One was broken trough. Material was also magnetic unlike the stuff that was floating in engine oil... Time to replace bearings(or atleast check them)?

I hope I managed to get pictures attached.

Last picture with new shim and the "used" one was taken while ago from another berg

Bike has now 270hrs.

The washer/spacer that comes with the Kibblewhite spring set are around 3mm thick.

No chance of that happening.

Very interesting and not surprising at all

I tried 0.1mm shims under taffmeisters springs in order to try and get them to do what they were advertised as doing (reducing forces)

It didn't work. Whenever I posted as such There were posts claiming that there has never been a problem with the 0.1mm shims

Now we see the same claim about 0.2mm shims.

It's the same as the claims about the seated forces of these springs .... Complete BS

The reasons it doesn't work to use 0.2 instead of 0.1 is the 0.1 is not thick enough to fatigue under deformation. Ie they are basically so flexible they do nothing

The 0.2 mm steel is a higher stress situation and still not stiff enough for the job

Difference is that it fails rather than just being useless

As I posted 5-6 years ago the lower spring seat should be a minimum of 0.4mm thick with a Rockwell hardness of 2 points higher than the springs

Like the Ktm set or the kibble whites

The original spring seats that came with my taffmeisters dvsk were zinc plated mild steel washers from a hardware store. The shape drilled in the middle wasn't round or even in the middle.

Basically the only difference between the Ktm set and taffs set is the thickness of the lower seats and the price

If you want readable instructions easy fit and a product that does what it caims to do just get the kibblewhites
There has never been an issue when installed as per their instructions lol

Taffy said:

it might be that your mains are going? if they are the bike will spit the shims that create your crank float out.

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You mean crankshaft main roller bearings? How can they effect the shims under valve springs? Or are you referring to the chips I found in oil?

I would like to run the DVSK kit I have...

I think I will use something thicker and harder stuff for the shims and try it out... How thick you think I can go with these springs? 0,5mm?

Any ideas on material? Bushmechanic said 2 points harder on HR(?) scale than springs. I have no idea what the metal springs are made of of how hard that is?

The engine runs very smooth BTW... Do you feel the in change of vibration if the bearings are going out of is it just instant failure and explosion?

Bonus picture of cylinder wall mark...

Everything looks good there. Mains will eventually fail catastrophically, but your wont notice any difference in engine feel. Same thing with big end of conrod.

I noticed a bunch of metallic shavings showing up in the oil, and as I turns out, my bottom end was starting to go bad.

Husa Bergele said:

You mean crankshaft main roller bearings? How can they effect the shims under valve springs? Or are you referring to the chips I found in oil?

I would like to run the DVSK kit I have...

I think I will use something thicker and harder stuff for the shims and try it out... How thick you think I can go with these springs? 0,5mm?

Any ideas on material? Bushmechanic said 2 points harder on HR(?) scale than springs. I have no idea what the metal springs are made of of how hard that is?

The engine runs very smooth BTW... Do you feel the in change of vibration if the bearings are going out of is it just instant failure and explosion?

Bonus picture of cylinder wall mark...

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the ktm atv dual set comes with 0.4 and occasionally 0.5mm thick lower seats

they are physically the same dimensions as the set you have so yes

there are lower spring seats available for street engines check ferrea, delwest etc.

if thats a no go you could ask mxtech if they have any old 0.5mm shock shims they are a bit soft but will work better than those pictured

let me know if you find a source i have an otherwise useless set of these springs as well.

all the shims are magnetic:
crank shims
SRK
and too a lesser extent the valve base shims.

The shims are made out of 316 grade stainless steel. I can supply you with 0.2mm shims and you can double them up. the original base shims from KTM were 0.5mm. I don't know what they are now but I do know that they were just mild steel and cut like butter.

so the photo of the really, really knackered shim is from before you had the bike?

and how many hours has it done with the 0.2s in?

I had a set of Kibblewhites, Steve Hardaker and I were the first here to experiment with them but I had valve bounce with them so stuck to the ones I sell now. they are a little stronger than the Kibblewhites, not as soft as the KTM springs (Bushie said it himself) but not a problem with them so far.

your liner (from here) looks good!

regards

Taffy

FWIW, two doubled 0.2mm shims are twice as stiff as one.

A single 0.4mm shim would be 8 times stiffer.

A single 0.5mm shim would be over 15 times stiffer.

I'll ask around from few local machining shops. Some might have 0,5mm shims in stock even...

I guess replacing all of the bearings and piston would be good thing to do at this point anyway (total 270hrs). All I know they could be the originals...

All bearings, Piston, cam chain, seals... All OEM. Anything else to look for?

How about con rod/crank? Just get them measured that they are in spec?

Would 1k€ be realistic budget for parts?

Machine shop handles work inside block and rest I can do myself... How many billing hours would that be? 5h?

Taffy said:

so the photo of the really, really knackered shim is from before you had the bike?

and how many hours has it done with the 0.2s in?

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The absolutely destroyed ones in picture were one oil change interval, so 5 hours inside my friends 650...

The ones that were little chewed up and bent were 1 hour in my 650.

thats correct tourist 2x 0.2mm shims is not stiff enough

the 0.2 alone is 8 times too flexible and fatigues as a result

stainless steel work hardens and is the worst possible choice

the ktm seats are not mild steel

Taffy said:

I had a set of Kibblewhites, Steve Hardaker and I were the first here to experiment with them but I had valve bounce with them so stuck to the ones I sell now. they are a little stronger than the Kibblewhites, not as soft as the KTM springs (Bushie said it himself) but not a problem with them so far.

Click to expand...

ive been asked to clarify this statement and im sick of answering pms about it

FWIW .....

the difference between taffys set and the ktm set at peak lift is insignificant... a few percent of the peak force. not enough to use as marketing.

what i did write was

the UK set is not quite as good as the ATV set

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the main reason being (as the pictures in this thread show) that the ktm set comes with lower spring seats that are correct thickness.

also the price oibviously

Im also asked why use kibble whites when taffy has told them about valve bounce and damage to the engine....

i point out that there is no evidence of this observation

valve bounce occurs with any springs that are not installed as per manufacturers instructions.

if you make your own lower spring seats for kibblewhites like i did and run a seated force 25% lower than recommended by KPMG then you can expect some bounce with the "08" profile cam approaching 8500 - 9000rpm. 360 hours in my bike with 25% less seated force than
recommended by kibblewhite and no damage from bounce.

install them correctly as per Kibblewhites detailed instructions and there is no issue in any of our engines.

kibblewhites are designed, tested and maufactured by automotive engineers for the range of ktm rfs and berg engines down to 400 cc

they are not idiots.

now there is a positive thing about taffs set.. its good to be positive lol

becasue they are so long taffys set is ***** proof for installation apart from the shim debacle.

that is to say that even if you go to the trouble of making your own lower spring seats it is not possible to install taffs or the ktm set in the stock head with stock valves at a low enough force to see any bounce.

the shims are another matter .....

5 hours use



the ktm set is the same ***** proofness but comes with real lower seats and is available for about half the price.

i don't care which set you buy ... makes no difference to me.

Hi

That is why I received them (shims) but never installed them


ZAGA