Where is my oil part III

BelgiqueBasterd · Aug 25, 2008

Some of you might remember my troubles with dissapearing oil. It stopped briefly, but now it's back.

The symptoms:
Well that's the problem, there are none. No oil leaks, no blue smoke, no oil in my coolant.

What could cause this, and what could be a sensible plan of attack to cure this? Strip down the engine again?

A bit of info on the bike, rebuild about 1000km's ago, it's been using oil ever since. I've ran it in on mineral oil, then switched to semi synthetic. But no improvement. The oil consumption isn't steady, sometimes, it dissapears quicker than other times, one time it stopped using oil completely.

The piston I used wasn't a new piston. But I have sent it off to the company that replated my liner so they could match the diameter of the piston to the liner. I did replace my valve stem seals, but didn't replace the valves or valve guides. Is it possible for oil to get into the combustion without resulting in blue smoke.

Consumption is about 200ml for a 50km ride.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated, what would be the first thing to check?

Please help

Taffy · Aug 26, 2008

the only clean place oil can go to that place in the sky is via the breather, back to the carb, get burnt and then you never see it.

typical problems with this area are:

ovality in the linar
grooving that you thought was ok but isn't
the oil ring doesn't go into the barrel nicely
the reed valve has debris behind it

might think of a few more later

regards

taffy

BelgiqueBasterd · Aug 28, 2008

Re: RE: Where is my oil part III

Taffy said:
the only clean place oil can go to that place in the sky is via the breather, back to the carb, get burnt and then you never see it.

typical problems with this area are:

ovality in the linar
grooving that you thought was ok but isn't
the oil ring doesn't go into the barrel nicely
the reed valve has debris behind it

might think of a few more later

regards

taffy

Liner was replated so it's unlikely to be oval, but offcourse any company can make mistakes. There was no grooving whatsoever on the piston, or the liner.

What do you mean the oil ring doesn't go into the barrel nicely? Once the're in, the're in no? Not much you can do wrong? I got the side with the letter pointing up, and put the three rings in a Y configuration.

How could a faulty reed valve cause oil loss?

I've ran out of my normal oil (5w40) to top up, so put some 15w40 in and it seems to have stopped (only done 30km's). I'll change out the filter and oil this weekend and put in 15w 40, or maybe even 20w 40.
Any disadvantages by using thicker oil? You probably have to let the motor warm up properly before opening up?

So maybe it's just me putting in too thin oil that's causing this.

Gokai134 · Aug 28, 2008

Re: RE: Where is my oil part III

So maybe it's just me putting in too thin oil that's causing this.[/quote]

Well, I definitely donÃ‚Â´t want to open up an Oil discussion (again),
but I think a 5W-40 is usually a fully synthetic oil.
My advice is
a) use mineral oil for the running in period (itÃ‚Â´s rebuild) and
b) use another (thicker) viscosity

peter

Taffy · Aug 28, 2008

non!

you can butcher the oil ring to get it in for sure. the central concertina'd part will overlap easily with its tail and then there is no pressure forcing the rings into the wall of the linar.

not straight?
a very real problem. nobody looks for it. until i came along (as usual) and said it here first.

its just not something a dealer would look for.

i've had 2 out of 10 ovallled so badly that the linars were scrap.

gokia got involved in trying to help me get 101mm pistons going.

regards

Taffy

BelgiqueBasterd · Aug 28, 2008

Taffy said:
non!

you can butcher the oil ring to get it in for sure. the central concertina'd part will overlap easily with its tail and then there is no pressure forcing the rings into the wall of the linar.

not straight?
a very real problem. nobody looks for it. until i came along (as usual) and said it here first.

its just not something a dealer would look for.

i've had 2 out of 10 ovallled so badly that the linars were scrap.

gokia got involved in trying to help me get 101mm pistons going.

regards
/Taffy

Well, seems inevitable that I have to open the engine up again to find the source. I would like to postpone (spelling?) that till winter. Would putting in thicker oil 15w or even 20w be a temporary solution, or will running this thicker oil cause other problems?

Thanks for the info.

Gokai134 · Aug 28, 2008

Well, seems inevitable that I have to open the engine up again to find the source. I would like to postpone (spelling?) that till winter. Would putting in thicker oil 15w or even 20w be a temporary solution, or will running this thicker oil cause other problems?

Thanks for the info.[/quote]

Before opening the engine try a thicker oil (mineral for the first hours)
The only "problems" the thicker oil will bring is less engine noise and less engine wear - and a the e-starter has work to a bit harder when cold-starting.

peter

Simon · Aug 29, 2008

BelgiqueBasterd said:
The oil consumption isn't steady, sometimes, it dissapears quicker than other times, one time it stopped using oil completely.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated, what would be the first thing to check?

If the problem is intermittent, then it probably isn't a permanent mechanical problem that is causing it to happen.

So far all of the possible reasons listed above would also come with other tell tale symptoms leading you in that direction. For example, if it were the reed valve stuck open, you would know about it!

What I recommend you do is actually go riding and when you get back home, note down the type of riding you were doing and how much oil was being consumed from that ride. You'll then get an understanding if there is a pattern to it which could lead you in the right direction.

So for example, if you were riding in conditions where you were wide open on the throttle, riding fast for long periods, I would expect there to be oil loss from the 650.

Then, you can start to eliminate the possibilities one by one. With the oil breather you can get some long tube and thread it into a container, that way you can check it is coming out of there.

Also, make sure you double check the water pump weep hole - it can produce intermittent weeping of oil and sometimes, it doesn't show up very well.

Hope this helps,
Simon

BelgiqueBasterd · Aug 29, 2008

Gokai134 said:
Well, seems inevitable that I have to open the engine up again to find the source. I would like to postpone (spelling?) that till winter. Would putting in thicker oil 15w or even 20w be a temporary solution, or will running this thicker oil cause other problems?

Thanks for the info.

Before opening the engine try a thicker oil (mineral for the first hours)
The only "problems" the thicker oil will bring is less engine noise and less engine wear - and a the e-starter has work to a bit harder when cold-starting.

peter[/quote]

Thicker oil it is then, i'll go directly to 20w 40 then. E starter doesn't work anyway, so no loss there!

BelgiqueBasterd · Aug 29, 2008

Simon said:
BelgiqueBasterd said:

The oil consumption isn't steady, sometimes, it dissapears quicker than other times, one time it stopped using oil completely.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated, what would be the first thing to check?

Click to expand...

If the problem is intermittent, then it probably isn't a permanent mechanical problem that is causing it to happen.

So far all of the possible reasons listed above would also come with other tell tale symptoms leading you in that direction. For example, if it were the reed valve stuck open, you would know about it!

What I recommend you do is actually go riding and when you get back home, note down the type of riding you were doing and how much oil was being consumed from that ride. You'll then get an understanding if there is a pattern to it which could lead you in the right direction.

So for example, if you were riding in conditions where you were wide open on the throttle, riding fast for long periods, I would expect there to be oil loss from the 650.

Then, you can start to eliminate the possibilities one by one. With the oil breather you can get some long tube and thread it into a container, that way you can check it is coming out of there.

Also, make sure you double check the water pump weep hole - it can produce intermittent weeping of oil and sometimes, it doesn't show up very well.

Hope this helps,
Simon

Thanks for the tips, weep hole weeps a bit, but not enough to explain loosing 200ml in only a 30km ride.

Where is my oil part III

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