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June 19th, 2007, 02:44 PM   #1
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crankcase heights

can someone fill me in a bit about the difference in crankcases?

anyone actually got the specs or measured it all up?

while i stripped the engine of my 400 last year i quicky nabbed the new woessner that i have waiting on the shelf ready to go in. i slipped the gudgeon pin of the new piston through and into the eye of the existing 400 and checked the crowns. I COULD CRY!!!!!

the piston crown as i recall; was about 2-3mm higher than the stock piston. i need taller crankcases! i even seem to think the taller spigot didn't want to fit but that's vague...

i believe the 400 is small, the 450/501/550 are mediuma nd the 650 is tallest?

have i got that right?

regards

Taffy
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June 20th, 2007, 12:06 AM   #2
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A suggestion Taff ??
Seeing as how "The Doc" is a mine of info, how about inserting an easy to read chart with all the specifics for each engine- ie case heights, piston compression heights and rod lengths??

Rod lengths are already there- so I'll start the ball rolling

03 650- Case height (from crank centreline to head gasket surface) = 200.50mm approx.
Piston height (gudgeon centreline to outer crown surface) = 23.05mm approx

No doubt there are some stripped 400/450/550/630s out there who could also supply the same info?
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June 20th, 2007, 05:46 AM   #3
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The 450 has a lower crankcase than 501/550 and a shorter timing chain(64L)just as the 400.
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June 20th, 2007, 06:54 AM   #4
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well we're getting closer!

regards

Taffy
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June 20th, 2007, 08:59 AM   #5
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Is it a flat top piston or "dome" type?
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July 8th, 2007, 01:46 AM   #6
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bump

for those interested in measuring i suggest from under the ID hole of the main bearing up to the cylinder head surface and then add half the crank journal - or we'll add it here!

anyway, got my old owner's book out and also took the measurement of the con rods into account from the doc (engine tuning).

as the 550 and 501 share the same stroke i trust they have the same rod and case? they have a stroke of 70.7mm compared to the 400/470's 60.1mm and the 'throw' is therefore 5.3mm longer. the 400 rod was 120mm and the con rod on the earlier 550/501 was 123/124mm so add the extra throw and the rod length together and you have 5.3 plus 3/4mm which equals 8 - 9.3mm. i expect that give or take a mm to get from the GP to the piston crown that this will be the figure.

the 650 (644cc) has a stroke of 82mm and a rod length of 130mm. the throw difference to the 400 is 11mm, add 7mm for the rod difference and you get 11 + 7 = 18mm.

so within reason we can say that the 501/550 case was 8-9.3mm higher than the 400 and the 650 case was 18mm higher than the 400 case (also about 9mm more than the 501/550).

sorry i didn't add the newer 630 and the 450 in here but as FSF says - the 450 has the same cases as the 400/470 and the 630 will share the same cases as the 644.

anyway! maybe that explains some of those handling traits!

regards

Taffy
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July 10th, 2007, 12:07 AM   #7
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Hi Taffy,

last year I made the same experience like you. I just wanted to exchange an old piston from my 470 with a piston from a 450 (or was it a 650, newer generation, model year 05 or 06).
The piston was approx. 3 mm too high for the 2002 crankcase.
One and half years before I updated this engine from 400cc to 470. Without any problems. I ordered a Woessner piston (originally for the 470, with hunchback for higher compression). It fitted perfectly.
I believe that the old 650 piston has got the same dimensions, except the hunchback.

But now, I am a bit confused, as I realized that there are different con rod lengths and crankcase heights. I thought I could easily exchange the whole crank out of my FE 450 ´04 to the FE 400 ´02 crank to have a stroke of 60,1mm and to have modern 470.
Right now I´m not sure if this would work. I measured some con rod lengths, I´m not 100% sure, but I think that the 450 has got only 117mm and the 400 120mm. If there would be a piston available that´s 3mm lower as the stock ´04 I could build up a 470 with Kokusan. Maybe I only have to buy a new piston. The crank is ready. That would be my next project.

To achieve that, maybe Taffy, we can put together all our measure we can get. I have several used pistons stock (from older 400, 501 and 470/650) appropriate with different diameters (92, 95 and 100).
If it´s necessary I can measure the heigths and distances from gudgeon centre to piston crown (you mean top edge of the piston?).
I would be interested as well in the crankcase height of the 400 from 2002. I wonder if the case height of the 400 is really the same as the 450 (2004). Does anybody know that? Or can take a measure for me? I will measure mine.

best regards
hribman
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July 10th, 2007, 03:20 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Taffy
the 650 (644cc) has a stroke of 82mm and a rod length of 130mm.
regards

Taffy
Taffy,

I have measured my 650 (03 644cc) conrod 3 times now and come up with a rod length of 134mm

Using digital verniers too !!!

Seems Dr C has come to the same conclusion, after I punched "134" into the search function.

http://www.husaberg.org/index.php?name= ... hlight=134

Seems the doc may have an error? maybe??
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July 10th, 2007, 03:35 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by AUSBERG
Originally Posted by Taffy
the 650 (644cc) has a stroke of 82mm and a rod length of 130mm.
regards

Taffy
Taffy,

I have measured my 650 (03 644cc) conrod 3 times now and come up with a rod length of 134mm

Using digital verniers too !!!

Seems Dr C has come to the same conclusion, after I punched "134" into the search function.

http://www.husaberg.org/index.php?name= ... hlight=134

Seems the doc may have an error? maybe??
There was a change in con rod length in 2003 - the 03 having the longer rod length. It was so long ago I can't remember the difference but that might be where this discrepency is coming from

Simon
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July 10th, 2007, 09:56 AM   #10
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oh! dear this has opened a hornets nest hasn't it!

thanks hribman for the offer. if your 450's throw is 1.5mm shorter than the 400 then the con rod would need to be 121.5mm long to use exactly the same cases. so if we can find out what the deck height is of a 450 piston compared to a 400 or 470 - well that would start to tell us something! i'm using the 400 as a starting point and bouncing everything off that.

i forgot to mention here, that the BV heads have another 1.8mm of metal on the cylinder head face. and nearly every other model than the 400 has the BV head. given that it's possible for the 450 to run a 123mm rod and have the piston clear the block slightly i would have thought that the rod would have been 123mm long and not 120 long hribman?

we then start to explain why the 470 has the tallest 100mm crown because it has to reach up over the 400 cases and through into the BV head. case solved and now closed!!!!

i don't even know the difference in the 470's the 550's the 650's and the 450's: 100mm piston. there's one for simon and Dr C!

as for the 650's rod length: well i was given that info and i'm as susceptible to mistakes as anyone as i don't double check things.

was there ever a 130mm rod on the 650? once we get all this confirmed i will change the doc but if the good doctor is right with:

"The conrod length on the 01-02 650cc was 134 mm, which changed with the 03 to 135 mm, if I'm correct"

then we have just raised the 644 cases another 4mm to 22mm more than the 400. the 630 has 1mm less throw but gains it back with the 135mm piston. if i was a tuner of the 650 i would get the longer stroke 644 crank but keep the 135mm rod. if the piston comes out at say .060" (1.5mm) squish and you want just .040" (1mm) then you only need skim and feather in .5mm of the piston and you'll have lovely compresssion and all that goes with it (after you've done the necassary checks).

would like to know why the 550 got a longer rod later as well. i think if we did a parts number check we'd learn a lot more - anyone fancy that?

so if i take into account the BV head this time i make the difference as follows.

400 and 470 case
501 and 550 case around 8mm higher probably than the 400.
650 case is around 21mm higher than the 400.

also remember that it's ok to measure from the top edge of the GP/WP hole but that the 400 has a smaller little end and should be taken into account. when we have these figures we may know even more.

regards

Taffy
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