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May 8th, 2017, 02:32 AM   #21
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Hi

Never used this kind of programmable ignitions.

One strange thing that I've noticed looking at your pictures is that you have chosen the option of one fire per revolution ?? That is a 2T.

Don't know if that makes any difference ? but it can

At idle we usually consider 6 deg of advance.


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May 8th, 2017, 03:54 AM   #22
ede
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Hi,

thanks zaga, I was also wondering about that - but I did not set it up like this - it was read via cable from the CDI. So I assume the parameter was set by the previous owner.

Other options are possible, as in the picture below.
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FE 501 2002 - Ignition Timing - Decomp - Starting Problems-008_ignitech-ignitions-per-revolution_01.jpg  
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May 10th, 2017, 06:17 AM   #23
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In a Husaberg brochure from 2002 I found this implied/draft of 2 ignition curves, but no numeric values. Too bad... ...pic an brochure below
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FE 501 2002 - Ignition Timing - Decomp - Starting Problems-2002-ignitionadvanve.jpg  
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File Type: pdf 02_brochure.pdf (1.91 MB, 9 views)
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May 11th, 2017, 02:37 AM   #24
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Hi

I yes I have that brochure but unfortunately that graphic is for marketing purpose only.

My doubt with that option remains since I don't know if that will really influence the CDI or if that is just to ID your programme ??

When I was playing with the kokusan ignition to fit it in my bike, a got some advices from Paul Tinwel, that knows a loooot more than we do about ignitions.
His advice was to keep the max advance at 40 deg, to be safe. So that would be my advice to you.


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May 11th, 2017, 02:48 AM   #25
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Also

From my experience, I can only see a noticeable difference between the 2 curves if you set it at idle correctly, if not, it will be already too advance to notice the difference. Except it will not rev so high.

Also, some people say that the graphic is not correct and the difference will be only at max advance. I think the problem is what I've described above, but not sure ??

You have the perfect tool to play with this, you can easily make a couple of experiences and try to replicate the curve of that graphic.

I would set the idle advance at 6 or maybe 5 deg for good starting and go from there.

It should be a fun toy have, your ignition.


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May 11th, 2017, 06:30 AM   #26
ede
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Thanks Zaga,

the bike came with this type of ignition and I could never really ride it, since it always stops running with backfire when approaching higher revs. So I need to check it, to make sure there is no mistake in the ignition timing. Otherwise I'll brake the bike or my bones

Since I'm not an expert on ignition timing, I want to collect as much information as possible, to figure out if there is something that has to be changed or not.

Putting things together that I have so far. Hardware first:
  1. Flywheel - o.k. (no loose magnets, or whatsoever)
  2. SEM-stator with common stator defect: Pick-up coil o.k., charging coils broken
  3. Replica stator: Horse Power Ignition ST5410L (seems to be the same as the Electrex one)
  4. Used Husaberg CDI from 2003, OEM-Part-No.: 250-293-01 / 855-191-14
  5. Ignitech-DC-CDI inductive coil

Hardware drawbacks:
  • SEM-stator: I cannot check the stability of pick-up signal at high rpm - engine is not running
  • ST5410-stator: no ignition timing mark
  • Husaberg CDI (855-191-14): Don't know if functions correctly - bought second hand
  • Ignitech-CDI: don't know if kids manipulated the ignition advance map

I thought about testing two configurations:
A) SEM-stator + Ignitech-CDI + Ignitech inductive coil
B) ST5410-stator + Husaberg-CDI/coil

Setup A) requires correct ignition advance map values. Therefore here comes the guess-work

Rev-Limiter
Starting with the rev-limiter value, which in my case is 9.700rpm on curve A and 15.000rpm on curve B. I assume the FE 501 Husaberg won't rev higher than 10.000rpm. If so, I would not force her to do so. ZB00P once posted a plot from his dyno-run in the forum (year 2000 FC501), where the plot doesn't reach the 10.000 (see picture 1). Let's take this as a starting point for setting the rev-limit below a little less than 10.000 (picture 2).

Ignition-per-Revolution
I guess here I have to set it to "1 ignition per 2 revolutions (camshaft)". Sounds to me as the onliest 4-stroke mode here - but I don't know anything about since the documentation has no info about it.

Ignition Advance Curve
Basically there is three curve shapes possible (see picture 3), but I assume only options - linear and degressive - make sense in ignition advance. All curves I found so far look actually degressive. So besides all theoretical information about ignition advance, this might be the basic curve shape to go with (even the data from the Husaberg brochure I posted looks degressive). Based on that I assume that ignition timing advances less with increasing rpm.

The Ignitech-CDI interpolates linear between two sampling points. The better I want to meet a certain curve, the more sampling points I should store in the CDI. Therefore I guess ignition advance between the first two sampling points looks like the green dottet line in picture 4.

Base Advance
Currently is set at 10. When I understand the concept of base advance correctly, It is the the difference between the end of the metal strip passing the the pick-up coil, measured in crankshaft degrees (see picture 5 below). This distance is defined by hardware and can only be changed by rotating the stator. So when putting the engine in TDC and using a new flywheel mark and adjusting the stator to the new mark, the base advance has changed - it's not the "default" anymore. Since many guys figured that when the engine idles the ignition timing should be about 6 BTDC - I assume this is my new base advance for the CDI. Is that correct?

Sampling Points
I guess that the ignition advance sampling points usually are set manually by try and error procedure on a dyno with online control for fuel-air-ratio. My aim is not getting the last horse power out - it's rather to get it running at all
From what I read/know about ignition advance is that most engines have a maximum advance between 32...36, up to 38...41. When I compare that with the data stored in my Ignitech CDI, which (Curve A) is 39 at 4.000rpm, 41 at 5.000rpm and still increasing up to 47 at 9.000rpm, my feeling is that there is something to much advanced... (see picture 6). Besides that it seems also strange to me, that between 5.000-8.000rpm the advance curve changes its shape from degressive to progessive -- same as between 1.000-3.000rpm.

Anybody out there that could give me some advice on this one?
Attached Thumbnails
FE 501 2002 - Ignition Timing - Decomp - Starting Problems-011_zb00p-fc501-2000-dyno.jpg   FE 501 2002 - Ignition Timing - Decomp - Starting Problems-011_ignitech-rev-limiter.jpg   FE 501 2002 - Ignition Timing - Decomp - Starting Problems-011_curves.jpg   FE 501 2002 - Ignition Timing - Decomp - Starting Problems-011_ignitech-linearinterpolation.jpg   FE 501 2002 - Ignition Timing - Decomp - Starting Problems-011_baseadvance_01.jpg  

FE 501 2002 - Ignition Timing - Decomp - Starting Problems-011_ignitech-samplingpointsdata.jpg  
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May 12th, 2017, 04:36 AM   #27
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Hi

As far as I understood you only have problems at high revs, no problems with starting and running at mid revs ??

You have a very long post so I will try to follow and tell you my opinion.

If possible to start I would like to use the original configuration (stator+CDI), but I understood you had to rewind your stator, if that is what you want let know, I might help you with that. About the CDI, usually they are good or they are broken, so if you test it and it makes a spark, my guess it's that is good.

I've never tried, but when using the HPI or the Electrex stator (the same), you can try to make your own timing mark based on the original SEM (sending you a file). I presume that will give you the same starting point as you have with the SEM.
I've read Taffy saying that with HPI/ELECTREX you should go to the max retarded position ?? because it will be too advanced ??

And yes, at least with the SEM configuration, you should set the advance at idle at 6

Attached Files
File Type: pdf SEM MKII Timing Mark Position.pdf (721.0 KB, 26 views)
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May 12th, 2017, 06:12 AM   #28
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Regarding the ignitech

I would play with it, as you say you don't want every HP your engine can give, so I would start with a more conservative curve.

Set the advance at idle at 6 and the max at 36 and rev limiter at 9000, and you don't have any problems, if you set the stator at the correct advance at idle.

As you say the program will interpolate points, so those steps that you have will be smoother, also the more points that you add the smoother will be the curve. The old SEM coils jumps from idle advance to max advance in an instant and those engine still run

The only thing that worries me is that you might be using a too big max advance and if you rev it long and hard you might destroy your engine.

Also be sure that the problem doesn't come from anywhere else.


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May 16th, 2017, 12:27 PM   #29
ede
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Hi Zaga,

thanks so much. Saturday night I could install the engine in the bike. I made a short test with the electric starter. The auto-decomp works fine now. The engine produced a few puffs. Feels like I'm on the right way - a few puffs is more than before

I'll try to work on it next weekend again. Thanks so much also for the pdf - I'll also try out the electrex/hpi stator - I'm just curious about it.
For the Ignitech ignition advance curve - I'll try a conservative curve first
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May 17th, 2017, 05:12 AM   #30
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Update:

I found a screenshot of the Ignitech-Software-Interface used at FP-Engineering showing some ignition advance curve data (picture attached). With this info, a rough guessing for the map curves from the brochure and the data from my Ignitech device I generated a plot (picture 2):
  • Red curve displays the data found on my Ignitech device
  • Green curve represents the data from the Husaberg brochure
  • Black curve is the data from the FP-Engineering screenshot

Looking at the curves clearly shows that the map points from my device have significantly different base advance and also the rise is more steep.

I'll try then with the lowest curve (HBG-brochure-Curve-B) first...
Attached Thumbnails
FE 501 2002 - Ignition Timing - Decomp - Starting Problems-012_fp-engineering-example.jpg   FE 501 2002 - Ignition Timing - Decomp - Starting Problems-012_ignition-advance-curve-comparision.jpg  
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