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June 16th, 2011, 12:02 AM   #11
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Re: Non OEM rod kit for the 644cc?

Originally Posted by Dr_C
Maybe I was naive, hoping to find a webshop where I could just tick on "Husaberg rod-kit", and a week later get it delivered. I guess that would only happen if I manufacture it myself... Same old story.

Well, Carillio is of course an option, as Arrow. But I would also need the wrist pin and bearing. Hm
How much is the OEM price for the 644 rod?
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June 16th, 2011, 08:27 AM   #12
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Re: Non OEM rod kit for the 644cc?

Originally Posted by ElSnorro
How much is the OEM price for the 644 rod?
The rod is only sold as a kit (rod, bearing, pin) for around 450€.
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June 16th, 2011, 03:56 PM   #13
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Re: Non OEM rod kit for the 644cc?

The MMX composites rod was a cool idea but has been discontinued due to lack of interest

Dr-C what temperature do you think the rod gets to ?

I'm thinking Cromoly tube vertically, tack welded to a hardened steel big end and little end race, then run CF tow through the middle of the Cromoly tube and around each steel end, there are resins that can handle 250 deg C but I'm not sure of what "handle" means in practice

apparently F1 were using CF rods before the ban on composites but had crankshafts cracking .... interesting, maybe the rods got too bendy when hot and set off some funny resonance in the crank.
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June 16th, 2011, 07:52 PM   #14
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Re: Non OEM rod kit for the 644cc?

Dr C, "The rod is only sold as a kit (rod, bearing, pin) for around 450€."

You can buy a "complete" late model crankshaft for about $20 more than that, plus shipping from the US.

The late model rod, pin and bearing are about $335 + shipping.

Cheers spanner
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June 16th, 2011, 10:39 PM   #15
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Re: Non OEM rod kit for the 644cc?

Originally Posted by spanner
Dr C, "The rod is only sold as a kit (rod, bearing, pin) for around 450€."

You can buy a "complete" late model crankshaft for about $20 more than that, plus shipping from the US.

The late model rod, pin and bearing are about $335 + shipping.

Cheers spanner
Lat model crank is 628cc (shorter stroke) which is a no-go for DR-C
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June 17th, 2011, 10:32 PM   #16
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Re: Non OEM rod kit for the 644cc?

Last time I asked this question this is the info I got:

JBS do a bearing/pin kit for the 32mm b/end.

Or, you can order a pin/bearing for an 03 450 SX and shorten pin to suit( ProX do them)

As far as rod- the Carillo seems fairly priced- or given your access to CNC machining services, you could always make your own- or a batch to offset costs.
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June 18th, 2011, 01:13 AM   #17
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Re: Non OEM rod kit for the 644cc?

Originally Posted by ElSnorro
Lat model crank is 628cc (shorter stroke) which is a no-go for DR-C
Maybe, but It got me thinking. If I go up to a 32mm big end, maybe the main bearings will last a little bit longer. Then I can change to a bigger, steel liner, and aim for 102-105 mm bore to keep cylinder volume. Then a rod with 136 mm length would suit fine. Does the 628cc crank "cure" the main bearings decease?

Originally Posted by bushmechanic
The MMX composites rod was a cool idea but has been discontinued due to lack of interest

Dr-C what temperature do you think the rod gets to ?

I'm thinking Cromoly tube vertically, tack welded to a hardened steel big end and little end race, then run CF tow through the middle of the Cromoly tube and around each steel end, there are resins that can handle 250 deg C but I'm not sure of what "handle" means in practice

apparently F1 were using CF rods before the ban on composites but had crankshafts cracking .... interesting, maybe the rods got too bendy when hot and set off some funny resonance in the crank.
I believe kicking the bike appr. 20 times before starting, to make sure there is oil in the big end, and a price tag of 800€, made the market loose interest. Not sure about the rod temperature, but I can ask around (I know the head of engine development at Königsegg). All the heat the piston picks up will go to the skirts, on to the liner, or down to the rod. There is a cheramic based spray you can get applied to the top of the piston to reduce the heat transfer. That would ease the engines' life in any case.

Originally Posted by AUSBERG
Or, you can order a pin/bearing for an 03 450 SX and shorten pin to suit( ProX do them)

As far as rod- the Carillo seems fairly priced- or given your access to CNC machining services, you could always make your own- or a batch to offset costs.
The info on big end pin and bearing is very useful, thanks Ausberg! I take it is the exact same outer diameter, providing the same press fit? At least I TRY to avoid ending up designing and manufacturing everything. Not succeeding all the time though...
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June 18th, 2011, 01:56 AM   #18
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Re: Non OEM rod kit for the 644cc?

Mats

you won't be going 'up' to a 32mm big end - you have a 32mm big end. I use the prox stuff and while the quality is Ok I'm not sure you should go down the chinese route for yours.

try alpha bearings in the UK, they have high quality stuff and use a silver coating which helps with lubrication and wear.

the 35mm big end will handle everything better even though you lose 16cc. however the rod ratio is quite short on the Husaberg, not sure you've read up on it but the rods could have done with being longer. If I was starting again tomorrow I would take 2mm off the crown of the piston and add it to the rod centres. 137 or 138 something like that.

I put the 35mm big end in the old crank and made a 666, well two 666s and have heard nothing back at present. but as I say, get the rod length up 2mm if having them made and get the piston crown edge down from 14.4 to 12.8 or so.

I guess if you were making that head again and could let the crown go up into the gakset and have a 1mm recess in the head would add a little more. a very whick head gasket would be another but it is all nickel and dime stuff!

regards

Taffy
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June 18th, 2011, 02:52 AM   #19
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Re: Non OEM rod kit for the 644cc?

Taffy have you worked out why the 550 doesn't flog out the liner yet? I know if you do get it there is a simpler way than all that bollocks to solve this "problem" on the 644

Dr_C FWIW this is indirectly from carrillo
For the weight We should be able to hit right around 290 grams total........ Also this would be a carburized connecting rod like the stock one without a hardened steel race pressed in.
oem weight is about 324 gm ? and the 628 rod is 378

I haven't seen a nice light piston over 100mm yet but Im sure you could knock one up

also if you get a lighter rod and a Ti pin perhaps the weight is offset

I firmly believe at this point the way to "cure" the main bearing issue is to prevent the crank spreading at all and use preloaded annular contact balls, you might need to lighten the crank though and that looks like a Pain in the rear on the 644. if you used the annular balls you could use a 32mm big end in a "stroked" 628 crank (82mm) then you keep the light rod, the long stroke and you can lighten the crank easily.

perhaps get in touch with Tom Miller he is very helpful and knows his stuff regarding the annular balls, http://www.cut7.com/

I love the ideas of the Königsegg looking forward to any figures I know the ford polymotor used injection molded "torlon" polamide/ polyimide plastic for many engine components including the cranks and the conrods. AFAIK my "high temp" novalock epoxy is polyamide based
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June 18th, 2011, 03:55 AM   #20
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Re: Non OEM rod kit for the 644cc?

Originally Posted by Taffy
you won't be going 'up' to a 32mm big end - you have a 32mm big end. I use the prox stuff and while the quality is Ok I'm not sure you should go down the chinese route for yours.
Haha! What a mistake! Can't blaim the spell check for that!

Originally Posted by Taffy
try alpha bearings in the UK, they have high quality stuff and use a silver coating which helps with lubrication and wear.
Thanks for the tip!


Originally Posted by Taffy
the 35mm big end will handle everything better even though you lose 16cc. however the rod ratio is quite short on the Husaberg, not sure you've read up on it but the rods could have done with being longer. If I was starting again tomorrow I would take 2mm off the crown of the piston and add it to the rod centres. 137 or 138 something like that.
I agree. Increasing rod/stroke-ratio will reduce piston to cylinder wall contact force and allow higher piston speed, it will improve the force transferred to the crank and increase the degree around the crank revolution where you have effective force from the combustion. I believe the weight is the only bad thing connected to increasing the rod length.

Originally Posted by Taffy
I put the 35mm big end in the old crank and made a 666, well two 666s and have heard nothing back at present. but as I say, get the rod length up 2mm if having them made and get the piston crown edge down from 14.4 to 12.8 or so.
666cc you say? With an offset 35mm pin and a 32mm rod, or how?

Originally Posted by bushmechanic
I haven't seen a nice light piston over 100mm yet but Im sure you could knock one up

I firmly believe at this point the way to "cure" the main bearing issue is to prevent the crank spreading at all and use preloaded annular contact balls, you might need to lighten the crank though and that looks like a Pain in the rear on the 644. if you used the annular balls you could use a 32mm big end in a "stroked" 628 crank (82mm) then you keep the light rod, the long stroke and you can lighten the crank easily.

perhaps get in touch with Tom Miller he is very helpful and knows his stuff regarding the annular balls, http://www.cut7.com/
Take a look at the 106 mm pistons "Pistal" is making for the 1198 Ducati! Very nice work! Unfortunately their minimum order for custom pistons is 10 pieces... Wössner has some nice forgings that a handy man can mill out.
In my case I think there will be a need for both reduce the crank flex, and use better main bearings. Angular contact bearings have been std in Ducatis for some time now. Put together with 0,15-0,25mm axial press fit for the crank. With alu temperature enlongation, I believe the will work at +/- 0,00 mm when in operating temperature. A friend, with a classic side car RR, has put those type bearings in his Weslake as a last resort.

This year I'll just put it together as it is, and use normal ball bearings, replacing them after 3-4 hours. A fun plan would be to:
-Use a 35 mm pin and 80 mm stroke
-Use a bigger steel liner (less blow-by) together with a 102-105 mm piston (654-693cc) with the piston pin located as far up as possible.
-Increase rod length to 137-138 mm (Carillio)
-Fit angular contact bearings
But keep it to yourselves! If the Mrs's find out I'll be in big trouble!
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