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View Poll Results: Who wants one?
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February 9th, 2010, 12:41 PM   #81
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Re: Replacement sub frame fuel tank is in the works!!!!

DaleEO,

Something just occurred to me.

I would make a suggestion about the placement of the fuel cap/filling hole and other aspects of your project: take into consideration the possibility that a person would/could also install the Aqualine saddle tank system.

From what I can tell, it looks like either position (under the seat, or in the grab hole) would work, but I have not seen either tank close up. Maybe you have seen the Aqualine tanks - I don't know.

Just saying. It would be a shame if one tank precluded the use of the other and we had to make a choice between them. Altogether we could get 8+ gallons of fuel on the bike for a worse case range of about 250 miles. For some trips/rallyes, that would be nice.

Personally, I think I would keep the old subframe and modify it to hold water instead of fuel, and if I found that the Aqualine tanks plus the stock tank would be just shy of my desired range, I might swap in your tank on those times when I wanted it. Or maybe not - maybe just keep yours in place and carry water some other way. I could do without water for a short while where fuel might get me out of the boonies a lot faster than water would.
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February 9th, 2010, 02:30 PM   #82
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Re: Replacement sub frame fuel tank is in the works!!!!

Originally Posted by tazer
Could you not fit something the same width as the muffler in this spot??
A tool container would not need to be that big 2.5" x 3"x 8-10"long would be enough.

Steve
Hi Steve,

The dimensions look small, but, if you pull the shock and lift the rear wheel up to where it would be under full compression, and take into account the chain whip, I think you would find it is a very close call.

The other problem with "hanging" a tool box there is the strength that would be required to hold said tool box on. If you were to put mounting holes there they would have to be done with some sort of metal insert. Secondly, the torque that would be exerted on the subframe by weight hanging so far from the attachment point would be great, not to mention the vibration.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea, I just don't think it is going to happen.

As far as the fill hole goes........ We put it in a location that would be as convenient as possible, and where the best possible mounting procedure would work. There is not much room under the seat to do much of anything except for the vent line. As I mentioned in the post above, we are using an aluminum insert in the tank that a plastic cap will thread into. This way, if someone were to overtighten the cap, the only threads that are going to strip are going to be the ones on the cap and not the ones in your $400 fuel tank. Further, we also decided to go with a NPT female type of filling hole to keep the size of the fill cap as small as possible.

If one was to mount the fill cap into an area further back on the subframe there would not be room for this metallic insert in the molding process. I appreciate Gazza's suggestion in the fill cap location to get the maximum fuel fill as quickly as possible. We gave this, and the other design criteria of our product A LOT of thought for the pro's and con's of each idea. John Wiser of 70 Degree Racing goes way back in mechanical design, and is a great rider as well, and he has had a lot of great input to our design process and has fetted out a lot of the details, both good and bad.

One of the things that was considered when we were designing our tank was the guy who is dual sporting his bike, or is just on a long ride and pops out into the world just to get gas at a filling station. When he puts his bike on the side side stand, the sub tank fill hole will be on the "up hill" side of the bike and will allow a great deal of the sub tank to be filled before refitting the cap. Then fill the main tank with the bike up right, and the main tank will gravity fill the small remaining space in the sub tank in a very short time, then just top off the main tank with that small amount of fuel if you need to get that much into the tanks.

So basically we tried to combine the needs of as many riders as possible into our design and we feel that we have a great product coming along here.The only way that anyone will know you even have that extra gas tank will be b/c of the fill cap and our logo! The picture I added here is just a photo shop version and not the real thing. But we will have something like this on our tank.

I'm expecting to be out at the molders next week to make any final tweeks to the model and then the Aluminum mold will be made off of the model as I previously described. We will then make a few tanks to make sure they are good all the way around and give them a good thrashing to find any possible problems and then start the production run. We can produce 100 tanks a week so meeting the demand quickly should not be a problem.
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February 9th, 2010, 03:59 PM   #83
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Re: Replacement sub frame fuel tank is in the works!!!!

Originally Posted by CodeMonkey
DaleEO,

Something just occurred to me.

I would make a suggestion about the placement of the fuel cap/filling hole and other aspects of your project: take into consideration the possibility that a person would/could also install the Aqualine saddle tank system.

From what I can tell, it looks like either position (under the seat, or in the grab hole) would work, but I have not seen either tank close up. Maybe you have seen the Aqualine tanks - I don't know.

Just saying. It would be a shame if one tank precluded the use of the other and we had to make a choice between them. Altogether we could get 8+ gallons of fuel on the bike for a worse case range of about 250 miles. For some trips/rallyes, that would be nice.

.

doh !!

very true re my previous comment about the filler being at the back, that wont work with the Aqualine rear tank which is needed for any rallye

so yes the under seat location is a good compromise
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February 24th, 2010, 12:28 PM   #84
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Re: Replacement sub frame fuel tank is in the works!!!!

Greetings all,

Here’s the latest and greatest on the 70 Degree Racing subframe tank, as of 02-24-10.

I was out at the molders on Thursday 2-18-10 to hopefully iron out the final details of the model so it could get sent off to the female shop, and then on to the foundry.

The molder had given the model project over from Tom to another model maker, Paul and I was advised of this before arriving. As usual I brought my bike and my scissor stand to make disassembly and assembly of my bike easier, as well as being able to use my bike as the mule to fit the model to.

When I had left last time it was understood that one of the sub frames we had provided was going to be cut up and the inserts removed and sent out to be copied and inserts produced to be used in our tank. Upon my arrival this time I found that had not been done. After taking the rear clip off of my bike to make ready for Paul to do his fit test for the model, I was looking for something to do and ended up cutting all of the inserts out of one of the sub frames provided to the molder after it had been cut up by Tom. I also found out that the molder, who had originally said that he could have the inserts made was unable to do so, and I am currently having these hard mounting point inserts made.





These are the inserts from inside the sub frame. The top insert in the picture is from the right rear of the sub frame and takes the vertical 8x26mm bolt (this is the one we had to redesign-see below). Starting on the bottom row left side, the first two are the bottom hard points, one for the left and one for the right, the wider one is the upper hard point from the lower left side, and the other two are the muffler hanger inserts.



It was around this time that Izzy, the mold maker came over to express concern over how one of the stock inserts protruded from the sub frame as this could cause a leak point to occur during the actual tank making process. This is the left rear vertical mouting point, from the outside, and the second picture is looking at it from the inside. The problem is the bare aluminum sticking out of the plastic, as this helps to create a path the "could" allow gasses that occur during the molding process between the mold and the plastic being molded to run down along the side of the insert and make a pin hole. This will be aleviated by cutting down the insert on the top, lengthening the 8mm thread section downward into the unused 6mm thread section to create a flat surface on the top. We will include a longer 8mm bolt and a crush collar to take up this space between the bottom of the horizontal sub frame truss, and the sub frame itself.





I have to say that this became quite an undertaking to engineer how we were going to solve this problem. Izzy had several suggestions, as well as Tom, however, each of their suggestions required the purchaser to make modifications to the horizontal sub frame or sub frame second part as it is referred to in the parts book.

This is NOT an option that we at 70 Degree Racing liked. We want to produce a replacement sub frame/ gas tank that is a bolt on affair only.

I spent the next several hours trying to figure out how to utilize the space that is available, and modify the insert to make the sub tank be a bolt on affair, yet make it so that there would not be any leaking concerns as expressed by the mold maker. In the end I was able to figure out a way to have the cake and eat it too.

While all this was going on, Tom and Paul was locating and drilling the lower hard mounting points on the model.





Late in the day the model was finally ready to place on my bike to check the fit of the lower three hard mounting points, and the hard mounting point in the top back of the model where the sub frame bolts to the sub frame second part, or the vertical 8X26mm bolts all the way in the back of the sub frame second part. While this may seem somewhat straight forward it is not, the model itself must be “plussed up” to allow for the shrinkage that occurs during the tank making process. IE the XLPE plastic shrinks inside the mold as it cools. And when one considers all the different directions in which the XLPE will be shrinking in relationship to these top two bolts in the back, and the effect this shrinking will have on the overall placement of the tank…….well you get the picture. Anyway, once we got the model mounted onto my frame, it was apparent that Paul had got the top rear mounting points right on the money.

















These, and the rest of the hard mounting points will be finalized in mold itself after the first tank is produced which will not have any of the screw or bolt holes in it. This is to allow for proper placement of the screw holes and bolt holes, regardless of the calculated shrink that will occur. This is the same process that all tank or plastic molders utilize to ensure proper placement of the mounting hardware.

To say that this tank is more complex to produce that a standard oversize gas tank is an understatement. The molder had based his original delivery time for our tank using a tried and true schedule, as well as the inserts not having been cut out and duplicated, long story short we are about a month behind the schedule that we originally thought we would have as far as delivery goes. So at this point we are thinking that the end of March will be when we start to get delivery of our tanks. I know that I was bummed to figure this out, and I’m sure that all of you who are wanting these tanks are too. However, progress is being made, and the 12 hours that I spent at the molders on this day was not wasted, as there was some other fine tuning of the model that needed to be done as well as all of the aforementioned items.

All of the other associated parts for the sub tank are in our possession, such as the quick disconnects and adapter plates, and now we are just waiting to get the tank mold done.

About all I can say at this point is to please be patient, progress is being made, and we are doing everything we can to get these tanks to market. I know I could have used one the other day when I was out riding as I was getting really close to having to bum some fuel from my buddy on the way back to the truck.

I have included several pictures from this latest trip to the molder, and as you can see things are taking shape.

Thanks Dale E O!
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February 24th, 2010, 01:24 PM   #85
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Re: Replacement sub frame fuel tank is in the works!!!!

Thanks for the update. If it takes another month, thats OK with me. The issues you are having seem to be resolved fairly quickley. I thank you for all the effort you are putting into this product. I know you have very high standards and when you release the final product, it should be .
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February 24th, 2010, 01:35 PM   #86
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Re: Replacement sub frame fuel tank is in the works!!!!

Thanks 06! I have to say it's more than a little frustrating to not be making faster progress, but the devil is in the details as they say. In making this post I also just realized another area that can be pushed out to get another 2 or 3 tenths of fuel so I guess that's the silver lining eh?
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February 24th, 2010, 01:37 PM   #87
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Re: Replacement sub frame fuel tank is in the works!!!!

Even more fuel, I like that!!!
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February 24th, 2010, 06:27 PM   #88
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Re: Replacement sub frame fuel tank is in the works!!!!

Hey Dale
thanks for the info
Another three tenths fuel capacity would be a plus.
The hours it takes to make a perfect product are appreciated.
Manufacturing parts has its rewards but can be frustrating as you know.
Thanks for working to expand are enjoyment (more miles).
Have a great ride
Haskell in Idaho
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February 24th, 2010, 07:36 PM   #89
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Re: Replacement sub frame fuel tank is in the works!!!!

Thanks for the update. It sure sounds like you are burning the midnight oil on this project. I sure hopr you meet with the success you deserve.
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February 25th, 2010, 02:08 AM   #90
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Re: Replacement sub frame fuel tank is in the works!!!!

good luck on the last bits Dale, it is looking good. My friend Bert Duursma and Dakar stage winner Frans Verhoeven did the same for BMW this fall, maybe you can find some usefull last insights there if you need any.

http://www.bertduursma.nl/g450x-fuel-tank-eng.htm






http://www.bertduursma.nl/g450x-fuel-tank-eng.htm
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