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June 24th, 2010, 07:57 AM   #31
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Re: Improving air flow into air box 09 570 Berg

I wouldn't say this is off topic. I can't modify my airbox without giving it more fuel. Stock I am at 13.2 Air/Fuel ratio. I won't even do a muffler until I get more fuel.
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June 24th, 2010, 08:46 AM   #32
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Re: Improving air flow into air box 09 570 Berg

Certainly, if you are going to add air or remove exhaust, you want to make sure you don't wind up with a lean charge and burn valves or the piston. And if you don't measure you don't know.

At this point I am not looking to make any mods any time soon - my primary use of my bike is off-road and for my style of riding the bike runs excellent and I don't need more power. But I like to know what the options are for other uses - street and especially snowbike use where there is less air at higher elevations and more need for power to drive a larger traction device that adds a lot of weight to the bike in an environment that slows the bike.

I would guess that others would like to know too.

Beyond that, it would just be nice to know. I would like to have a tool that could look at what is going on in the ECU/EFI, and I would like to know the A/F ratio. About the only complaint I have about the EFI on my bike is that it seems to 'hunt' a little at light loads and light throttle on pavement. Not bad, but enough to notice if you pay attention. I don't know if that is because of a problem with the setup, or if it is indicative of a problem with the EFI mapping, or a sensor or what. Not crucial, but enough to make me wonder.
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June 24th, 2010, 06:40 PM   #33
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Re: Improving air flow into air box 09 570 Berg

So I bought a 'take off' seat from my dealer today for $50. Eventually I will take it over to our local seat builder (Rich's Upholstery) and have him make a custom seat for me with a wider section like a Renazco:

and I will have him work with me on a hole for the airbox.

My dealer agreed that this would make more HP but that I will have to retune the EFI so it won't run too lean.

We talked a bit about the dealer mapping tool and the customer logging tool. If I understand correctly the mapping tool does not provide the ability to edit the maps, only load them. So I guess I need to look for some way to do that. I suppose I could have one map that is the street/snow map for the seat with the airbox hole, another map that would be the current 'aggressive' map for when I ride on the street to/from the trails with a dirt seat with no airbox hole, and the standard 'traction' map.

I went riding today and I usually use the 'traction' map all the time, but I switched to the 'aggressive' map to see if I could live with it on the trail. I went to lift the wheel slightly over a fallen tree and wound up with a 4 foot wheelie instead of a one foot wheelie. So I switched to the 'standard' map and promptly wheelied up a hillclimb that I have done 50 times before, and I dropped the bike on its side.

So 'traction' it is I guess for the trails.

I did ride home on the 'aggressive' map, and I noticed throttle response was more immediate. Not huge amounts of more power, but the bike felt more alive and immediate in its response to any throttle. In short, it was more fun on the street that way and even felt a bit smoother.
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June 24th, 2010, 09:09 PM   #34
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Re: Improving air flow into air box 09 570 Berg

I will ask Tuneboy next time I see him, if he has a plan release date for Tuneboy Husaberg EFI tuning kit.
That's 2 questions for him now


I'm with aquajett and ozberg570 too, UHE is a good place to learn. Thanks again Json, we would be in the dark without you.
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June 25th, 2010, 04:44 AM   #35
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Re: Improving air flow into air box 09 570 Berg

Codemonkey,

You need to download the user setting tool manual, it's free from the mother site.

I believe that you are incorrect what you can do with the user setting tool, and you will see that once you have RTM. It should be noted, that all you can do with the user setting tool is adjust fuel and not timing. The user setting tool will also give you access to the 900 minute data logger that is available within the stock ECU unit.

As far as the bike being leaner from improving the air flow, I also believe that your assumptions there have forgotten the purpose of the MAP sensor or Manifold Absolute Pressure. If you improve the air flow into the throttle body, the MAP sensor, should by it's design think that you are riding in an area of lower elevation, or higher air pressure, and along with the air temperature sensor, determine the correct air density and adjust the fuel mix accordingly. Just remember to a 15 minute idle burn after you make your modifications, and the ECU will do the rest.

I have ridden my bike from conditions of cool and moist at sea level, up to 13,000 and warm temperatures, these are huge differences in air density, and the bike always runs the same- just incredible.

Now, if you were dramatically increasing the compression ratio, then I would think that a change to a higher octane fuel, and adding more fuel would be necessary, other wise, I don't think you will need to do a thing.
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June 25th, 2010, 08:47 AM   #36
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Re: Improving air flow into air box 09 570 Berg

Originally Posted by DaleEO
Codemonkey,

You need to download the user setting tool manual, it's free from the mother site.

<SNIP>
Thanks. That is very helpful. I know the EFI will adjust, but will it adjust enough? The one post by the person who tried a dyno run without the seat indicated his A/F ratio went lean on him, so that indicated that the EFI did not adjust completely. Also, IIRC, there is a special map for the Akra?

But I would guess the best way would be to try it and measure it. The user setting tool has a lot of interesting info, but it doesn't show the A/F ratio. I wonder if a person could use the existing O2 sensor for that?
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June 25th, 2010, 11:43 AM   #37
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Re: Improving air flow into air box 09 570 Berg

DaleEO,

I forgot to do the idle trick after I took the seat off. It should have compensated while doing the runs. I am just going by what I have learned about the KTM ECU's. They are the same but Husaberg has a much better handle on it. The KTM ones a few years ago would only "look" at the corrective inputs to adjust every 10 minutes. Thus, the 15 minute idle trick. I have watched my wide-band while doing the idle trick and seen it adjust. About a year and a half ago KTM updated that to every 5 minutes. Don't know if Husaberg follows the same logic. I suspect they don't as there fueling is tons better. Might be since I have the standard map it won't adjust that much. I still have to weld a bung on the pipe for my wide-band. After that I will see what the "comp" map will do.
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June 25th, 2010, 11:55 AM   #38
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Re: Improving air flow into air box 09 570 Berg

Originally Posted by CodeMonkey
Originally Posted by DaleEO
Codemonkey,

You need to download the user setting tool manual, it's free from the mother site.

<SNIP>
. I wonder if a person could use the existing O2 sensor for that?

The existing 02 is a narrow band. It only tells the ECU "rich" or "lean"just a toggle switch. Bosch has some good info I just can't find it right now.
http://boschoxygensensor.com/default.asp?i=4_4
The Lambdas in our FE's are smaller than the normal use ones. Probably to help not restrict flow.
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June 25th, 2010, 02:32 PM   #39
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Re: Improving air flow into air box 09 570 Berg

I seem to recall several people mentioning that the '09 bikes did not use the O2 sensor at all??

And I think the 2010 MY doesn't even have that sensor?

That the 2011 will use a different sensor which is not in the exhaust, but in the combustion chamber??

Thanks for the info. I very vaguely knew of some of the ideas about the 02 sensor and EFI, but I did not know the general theory, the differences between wide band/narrow band, open loop v. closed loop, etc.

I will eventually go ahead and get the seat done and then maybe find someone with a dyno and a/f gauge and have some dyno runs made with the two different seats and without a seat at all, on the different maps. If you don't measure you don't know.
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June 27th, 2010, 04:58 AM   #40
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Re: Improving air flow into air box 09 570 Berg

What is the EFI Computer learning by letting it idle for 15 minutes? This subject has come up before and truly puzzles me. I find it hard to believe that it can take so long to learn anything. The Autronic EFI systems I am familiar with learn Atmospheric Pressure from the Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor before the starter motor cog even hits the ring gear.

The map in an EFI computer is a simple 2 dimensional table with an "X" Axis and a "Y" Axis. The "X" Axis is Engine RPM, the "Y" (Load) Axis is Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor (MAP) when the bike is at idle to somewhere not far off idle. Then it swaps from MAP sensor to Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). So the EFI computer cannot learn there is more air coming into the engine when improving air flow while it is using the TPS as load, which is most of the time.
It swaps from MAP to TPS because the inlet manifold is such a small volume it cannot get an accurate reading.
The resulting cross point in the EFI map table (which is based on load and RPM axis) is the time the Injector is held open. Simple

The map table will be corrected by a multiplication factor based on 4 things:
1. Engine Coolant Temperature
2. Air Temperature
3. Oxygen Sensor. This will only adjust light loads as it is not very accurate. As tahoeacr already stated it is Narrow band. You need Wideband and a purpose built Air Flow Ratio meter with all the bells and whistles (Temperature correction and other mumbo jumbo they have to give an accurate reading).
4. Atmospheric pressure. I don’t know yet how it learns this. It is either by the MAP sensor when the computer first gets power, or it has a second MAP “type” sensor internal in the EFI Computer.

On top of that the EFI Computer will hold the injector open for a set time when it sees a sudden opening movement of the throttle via the TPS. Emulates a carby accelerator pump

Think that is how it works I am going to hassle Tuneboy for a cable so I can learn this Keihin EFI stuff. Man I can't believe a computer could take 15 minutes to do anything unless Bill Gates wrote the code for Keihin?
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