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April 22nd, 2008, 05:21 PM   #1
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restarter upgrade '02 650

when i started my '02 fx650e dualsport project, the bike had been stripped of its original lwiring harness , starter, etc. i bought replacement components from one of our members and bought a relatively new honda f4i starter from ebay. made an adapter to fit the mount and put in a new battery. changed the auto decomp and spring and cranked away to expected estart bliss. "not so fast" the bike said "we're not done here" bike would crank, but not start or restart. i was close to yanking the starter out of my '04 and trying it because the honda one sounded slow. after checking for binding problems and not finding any, i got another ebay treasure, a starter from a 99 yamaha r6. when it arrived in a package that the usps did their best to destroy, i changed the back end from the honda, put it in and "voila" (is that right, froggy?), the sucker starts hot or cold!
has anybody else run across this? it seems the yammy cranks a lot faster. they are both 2 brush starters and the armatures looked similar, but the honda didn't have the grunt. sparks, could it be different windings? or was the honda a dud? or maybe my dog knew more about that starter than i realized.
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restarter upgrade '02 650-bergpoop-1.jpg  
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April 23rd, 2008, 06:46 AM   #2
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Re: restarter upgrade '02 650

Originally Posted by ned37
when i started my '02 fx650e dualsport project, the bike had been stripped of its original lwiring harness , starter, etc. i bought replacement components from one of our members and bought a relatively new honda f4i starter from ebay. made an adapter to fit the mount and put in a new battery. changed the auto decomp and spring and cranked away to expected estart bliss. "not so fast" the bike said "we're not done here" bike would crank, but not start or restart. i was close to yanking the starter out of my '04 and trying it because the honda one sounded slow. after checking for binding problems and not finding any, i got another ebay treasure, a starter from a 99 yamaha r6. when it arrived in a package that the usps did their best to destroy, i changed the back end from the honda, put it in and "voila" (is that right, froggy?), the sucker starts hot or cold!
has anybody else run across this? it seems the yammy cranks a lot faster. they are both 2 brush starters and the armatures looked similar, but the honda didn't have the grunt. sparks, could it be different windings? or was the honda a dud? or maybe my dog knew more about that starter than i realized.

Hi Ned ,

Sorry about this I nearly missed your post due to all the excitement, yes there is a difference and that is in the armature windings one is wound for more torque rather than speed this will all be worked out down to the gearing ratio of the starter system. If you had looked at both armatures you would of seen one would of have a two tear winding and the other a three tear.
Also one would of been wave wound and the other lap wound with a lap wound armature the connection to the com are close together this is what gives it the speed on a wave wound armature the connections to the com are spread roughly 180 degrees apart this gives you the torque.
Sorry about the technical crap.

Regards

Sparks.
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April 23rd, 2008, 09:36 AM   #3
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RE: Re: restarter upgrade

ned we have two threads running right now

'new decomp lobe v old'

and also

'dual spring valve spring kit'

both of the changes i made have turned my mo-sheen into a 2-stroke!

the leccy boot is a seperate issue but what it does mean is that the starter motor has to do FAR LESS work now?

regards

Taffy
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April 23rd, 2008, 11:01 AM   #4
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the leccy boot is a seperate issue but what it does mean is that the starter motor has to do FAR LESS work now
yes, but still the '06(?) honda f4i starter won't spin it fast enough to fire.

thanks for the description steve, thats what i suspected, but i just left the armature in the case when i made the swap so didn't look for a difference.

so i would say based on my experience is that the honda f4i won't be a good replacement for the bogus '01-'02 starters but the yamaha r6 would. but either one has to be adapted so that it mounts to the berg. easy enough with the honda using the stock early 650 mount, and still doable with the r6 with a little bit of trimming.

i attached a pic of the armature of the honda starter
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April 23rd, 2008, 01:05 PM   #5
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Re: restarter upgrade '02 650

ned?

what did you do with that old blue jean skirt i used to see you in those downtown bars wearing?

you looked nice in that?



regards

Taffy
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April 23rd, 2008, 01:14 PM   #6
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RE: Re: restarter upgrade

i think its pretty evident what happened to it taf, and i'll not soon forgive that dog
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May 5th, 2008, 07:26 AM   #7
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I am confused as one can be.
I am about to upgrade my starter on my 04 FE650. The most talked about starter for doing this is the CBR600R starter motor. After reading the threads a little closer it seems that the CBR600R starter isn't a good choice for cold starting.

My problem is that I don't want to modify the mounts more than a limited shop can handle. So I am not into machining a new mount.

And I want the best starter that I can get for the upgrade.

Is the Yamaha stater proving to be better than the Honda?

Does the Yamaha stater require a lot of modifications?

Regards
Hair

AS a side note I had Moto-pro rework the forks on my berg. I got a good product from that at a fair price. I intend on going back to Moto-pro with my 950 SE forks.
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May 5th, 2008, 07:57 AM   #8
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hair

i'm a little frustrated with you fella! this is the first time we have heard that a yamaha starter is better. ned has done the donkey work and you have read it here as being better. we and ned only know what you can see here!

perhaps we can cajole a photo and description out of him as to how he modified the honda part of his starter to fit the original and old mounting bracket...... as i'm sure you read, he utilised the original arse-end from the honda onto the rest of the R6 unit and slotted it in.

regards

Taffy
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May 5th, 2008, 08:18 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Hair
I am confused as one can be.
I am about to upgrade my starter on my 04 FE650. The most talked about starter for doing this is the CBR600R starter motor. After reading the threads a little closer it seems that the CBR600R starter isn't a good choice for cold starting.

My problem is that I don't want to modify the mounts more than a limited shop can handle. So I am not into machining a new mount.

And I want the best starter that I can get for the upgrade.

Is the Yamaha stater proving to be better than the Honda?

Does the Yamaha stater require a lot of modifications?

Regards
Hair

AS a side note I had Moto-pro rework the forks on my berg. I got a good product from that at a fair price. I intend on going back to Moto-pro with my 950 SE forks.
In 04 the 550/650 came with a larger starter than in 01-03. There is no starter upgrade
for your model unless you can convince Powercell to make you one of his custom brackets so that you could fit the starter pictured to the far right. In the picture you can see the difference between the 450 and 550/650 starter on the left and middle.



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May 5th, 2008, 08:28 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by husabutt
In 04 the 550/650 came with a larger starter than in 01-03. There is no starter upgrade for your model unless you can convince Powercell to make you one of his custom brackets so that you could fit the starter pictured to the far right. In the picture you can see the difference between the 450 and 550/650 starter on the left and middle.



so eric, you have a 450 starter from '03 on the left, a 550/650 starter from '03 in the middle and an '04 (all models) starter on the right?

questions
what did all the 2000-2003s run?
is hairs starter as powerful as the honda and yamaha ones we have mentioned?
what needs which bracket whether that be modified or new or machined up?

sorry if i'm dumb but the doc will be informed of this! good info and now an excellent thread!

regards

Taffy
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