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September 21st, 2014, 01:26 AM   #61
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in searching for info I found the MSD programmable ign works off the timing strip in the same way

good explanation of the system in the instructions.. seems like not a bad product either for around $320

instructions
https://www.mpsracing.com/instructions/MSD/4217.pdf

some other alternatives are Ignitech and zeeltronic
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September 21st, 2014, 02:26 AM   #62
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Hi Bushie,
I am very curious about this ignitionsystem from MSD, a few friends of mine used MSD ignitions on their V8 Mustangs with very different results, one the cars caught fire with this ignition

Grtz Rens
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September 21st, 2014, 03:53 PM   #63
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Hi Rens, i don't know anything about the msd igns

there are also few interimnetz postings about the ignitech units failing

the one with the best record is the vortex but if you want to reprogram it the software and cabling is very expensive
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September 22nd, 2014, 01:52 AM   #64
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Hi Bushie

Thank you for your findings, very interesting, but I don't really understand it.

Let's see, the pickup sensor is just a coil and that coil when it's passed closely by the strip of metal is excited producing one AC current, witch is a sinusoid, as you can see perfectly in the MSP instructions page 4.
That sinusoid can have the first the negative part of the AC wave or the positive, depending on the way it is connected.
That is why I've always consider to maintained the pickup in the same way that it is originally (green first then red) as you can see in pictures. Because maybe the CDI would be "confused" receiving that signal in a different way.

So your Kokusan CDI will "listen" to some info to determine the advance it will give to the spark, it will "listen" when the sinusoid will start and measure how long it will take to end, so it is determining where the engine is and how fast it is going (so don't change the length of the strip), and it will also "listen" to the TPS (that is just one variable resistance). So based on that info, it will make a very fast decision to how much advance it will give to the spark at any time.

But the stator when rotated by the magnets is just putting some AC current to power stuff, so I can't understand why you have to reverse the stator when you reverse the polarity of the pickup ?? But it's good to know, thanks

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SEM KOKUSAN Conversion-ktm_timing.jpg   SEM KOKUSAN Conversion-picup_berg.jpg  
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September 22nd, 2014, 02:01 AM   #65
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Hi Bushie,
Well i am just very curious how things work out, with the MSD unit so let's wait and see.
But hey man youre wright moneywise, you can just spend it once.
Things are expensive enough.
Will be hearing from you again

Cheers Rens
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September 22nd, 2014, 03:52 AM   #66
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Hi Zaga,

I'm not sure how the 2 coils are related either but im happy it works somehow

i took a pickup coil apart .... there is a permanent magnet inside it which is why it doesn't matter if the coil is upside down or not, the strength of its (the stationary magnet) magnetic field is just interrupted by the strip so the only important thing is the direction of the windings and this is the same even if the coil is flipped.

like this situation where the field changes in axial direction



the main coil however is behaving very differently, i imagine the field is changing more from left to right instead of axially



but if that is right then if you flip it and reverse its wires it should behave the same as before but it doesn't

if the main coils wires are reversed there is no spark no matter what you do with either coil; upside down reverse polarity... whatever combination there is no spark

you can get a spark by flipping the main coil upside down and then reversing the wires on the pickup but it is then at about 35 deg BTDC

so the ignition must be "listening" to the relationship between both coils

i could have made a rig to check it with a strobe in the mill, 10 000rpm spindle but once the bike started I went for a ride instead

I don't think the ignition always uses the length of the strip to determine engine speed ? .. the information i found says it is to set the difference between base rpm advance and full advance.

what do you think Zaga ? why doesn't it work at all with the main coils wires reversed ? the main coil is not connected to ground at all

Last edited by bushmechanic; September 22nd, 2014 at 10:30 PM.
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September 22nd, 2014, 01:38 PM   #67
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Hi my friend

I'm not an expert, but let me share first some thought about the timing thing.

A variable reluctance (VR) sensor is very simply a small magnet with a coil of wire wrapped around it. The magnet creates a field, and any changes to this field are sensed by the coil of wire. In the figure above imagine the magnet inside the coil. As the magnet is stationary, what will you see on the ammeter? The answer is zero. No change of magnetic flux when the magnet is stationary = no induced current. However, what will happen if you move a ferromagnetic material (iron, steel) close to the magnet? The steel part is attracted to the magnet, which in physical terms means the magnetic flux is distorted towards the steel. As you move the steel part close to the magnet you induce a current in the coil. Providing you keep moving the steel part at the same speed, the closer you approach the magnet, the higher the flux distortion. As an aside, you can feel this when you bring any magnet close to an iron part: the closer you get, the higher the force trying to pull the magnet onto the iron.

Similarly, when the steel part is stationary (either close to the magnet, or far away), there is no change of magnetic flux, therefore no induced current.

Relating this to our flywheel, you have the sensor mounted close to the flywheel, and the steel strip passing the sensor periodically.
Before the steel strip arrives at the sensor, the gap between the flywheel and the sensor is constant = no flux change = no induced current; as the steel strip approaches the sensor, the magnetic flux is distorted by the steel approaching so we begin to induce a small current; as the steel strip get closer to the sensor, the flux is distorted more, so the flux change is higher, and the induced current is higher; as the leading edge of the strip is passing the end of the sensor, the magnetic flux is disrupted to the maximum (the radial gap is closing, and the disrupting influence of the edge is passing through the strongest area of the magnet's field) so the induced current reaches a maximum level too; after the leading edge passes (but before the trailing edge approaches), the gap between the strip and the sensor is smaller than it was, but importantly it is constant, so the only influence is the retreating edge passing away from the magnetic field. As the edge retreats, the induced current rapidly falls to zero.
Now, as the steel strip is going past the sensor, the radial gap remains unchanged, and therefore before the trailing edge arrives the induced current remains at zero.
As the trailing edge comes close to the sensor, the magnetic flux that was being attracted to the steel begins to be less attracted. The flux is thus changing and therefore a current is induced once more into the coil. Note that now the flux is going from a high level to a low level, so the direction of the induced current is reversed compared to when the steel strip was approaching the sensor (when the flux was going from a low level to a higher level...).
The rest of the story is as for the leading edge, but in reverse...
So in summary you get an induced current that increases from zero to a maximum, then back to zero at the leading edge of the strip; then in the opposite sense from zero to a maximum and back to zero at the trailing edge of the strip. The geometry of the sensor and flywheel and metal strip make the waveform approximately sinusoidal in both directions, and of course the polarity depends on which way you connect the sensor. If you connect one way you'll get a positive waveform on the leading edge; reverse the connections and you'll get negative waveform on the leading edge.

When the trigger signal arrives at the CDI, the circuit integrated into the unit calculates two things:
the engine speed ;
the required time delay after seeing an edge of the trigger pole before making the spark.
This can be done either with analog or digital electronics, the second of which is most common these days, and certainly the easiest to understand: the measured time between two pulses, or one engine revolution, generates a value used in a 1D 'look-up' table stored in the processor memory; the value from the table is in effect the ignition delay.

These calculations are typically started when the CDI receives the leading edge trigger pulse (let us assume this is positive), and are finished well before the trailing edge pulse (the negative part of the trigger signal) arrives. So the CDI processor, having finished the calculation, sits waiting for the trailing edge pulse... when it arrives, it counts the required time delay, then releases the capacitor charge by a transistor (a switch) through the coil.

Now, moving to the specific variables:
The length of the trigger pole (metal strip) is critical.
The position of the trigger pole relative to TDC is critical.
The position of the trigger sensor is also critical, but only relative to the position of the trigger pole.

Sooo ... that advance that you are measuring is at idle speed ?? Do you remember I've told you I would make the cover in a way that I could move the pickup coil ?
I don't know in this case the advance at idle, but I wouldn't mind that now, I would look to the max advance and tune it to stay below 40 advance to be safe, and then look at the idle advance. This is with a cover that I could do that, now you will have to figure out the way to do it with your programmable ignition.

About the stator let me try to figure it out after some sleep
Hope it's not a too long message

Cheers
ZAGA
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SEM KOKUSAN Conversion-trigger_pulse.jpg  
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September 22nd, 2014, 01:51 PM   #68
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Bushie

Please explain me what do you mean when you say you need to "flipping the main coil upside down" I don't know if I'm understanding it correctly.

Cheers
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September 22nd, 2014, 04:16 PM   #69
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HI Zaga

your explanation is very clear .. thankyou

that also is how i understand coils and magnets to work as well so we are on the same page.

by "flipping the main coil" i mean that you take the stator out of its mounted position and put it back in so that the "outside face" is now on the inside

so if you marked the side you could see with a pen then after the flip you would not be able to see the mark.

I talked to a bloke who found the same with a cr500 engine .. there is no spark if you flip the main coil and reversing the main coil wires doesn't make any difference.

I think what happens is that the signal from the main coil has to put out the same (or opposite) initial polarity pulses as the first one that comes from the pickup,



so for example if the main coil is putting out a + pulse first and then the pickup coil puts out a negative and the cdi "detects" reverse engine rotation then it doesn't produce a spark

thats why flipping the main coil only produces a spark when the wires on the pickup coil are changed but then it produces a starting speed spark at max advance timing

it could be that the position of the main coil relative to the pickup coil is also important since this also changes when the stator is flipped

what I don't understand is why you can't get any spark at all with the main coil in the stator upside down and its wires reversed

the 2 actions should cancel each other out as far as polarity of the pulses is concerned

I didn't check the base timing with a strobe..would have liked to ... maybe one day. i know that the measurements of everything are the same as OEM, the bike starts and runs very well.

Last edited by bushmechanic; September 23rd, 2014 at 02:36 AM.
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September 23rd, 2014, 06:40 AM   #70
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Hi Bushie

I'm as lost as you

Let me just remember something, you are using one FE flywheel and one FC stator ?
They are both from husaberg 04 - 08 ?

When you flip the stator, the distance of the coils varies with respect to the cover ? or in other way, does the relative position of the stator to the flywheel change when you flip the stator ?

For now, I'm not trying to make a connection between stator and pickup coil polarity (as you), I just think there is a right way and a wrong way... let's see..


ZAGA
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