Husaberg
Go Back   Husaberg Forum > Mechanical and Technical > Cooling Systems

Cooling Systems Cooling Systems - Radiators, Water Pumps, Fans, Coolant, etc.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
October 6th, 2006, 08:29 AM   #1
Moderator
 
Joined: Oct 2002
From: Sunland, CA

Posts: 3,117
Thanks: 18

I Ride:
Cooling

Rumors being what they are..........

I heard an interesting one the other day. That starting in 08, KTM's will be delivered with Evans NPG-R coolant in their radiators. That is what's in the TyDavis Waterless coolant bottles you may have seen on the shelves of your local bike shop. When I get a for sure on this I'll post again.
DaleEO is offline  
 
October 6th, 2006, 04:34 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
LINEAWEAVER's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
From: El Sobrante, Ca. 94803

Posts: 3,249
Thanks: 1

I Ride:
Re: Cooling

Originally Posted by DaleEO
Rumors being what they are..........

I heard an interesting one the other day. That starting in 08, KTM's will be delivered with Evans NPG-R coolant in their radiators. That is what's in the TyDavis Waterless coolant bottles you may have seen on the shelves of your local bike shop. When I get a for sure on this I'll post again.
Doing so would certainly eliminate "Boil Over". Unfortunately the price to pay is that of a likely increase in hard part temperatures. (IE Piston, Cylinder, Cylinder-Head, Etc.)

Yes, I understand the "Coolant" temperature shall be reduced in addition to the higher boiling point.

Why?
Because less heat is being transfered from the hard parts to the coolant.

Unfortunately distilled water with a wetting agent is pretty tough to beat when lowering actual "Engine" temperature is the objective.

Positive Note:
When I could not prevent our R1 from boiling over (even with an increase in pressure) I used Evans coolant. The engine temperature increased (consequently reducing power), the coolant temperature decreased as expected, however, we stayed in the program as boil over was eliminated.
LINEAWEAVER is offline  
October 6th, 2006, 09:44 PM   #3
Member
 
Joined: Apr 2006
From: Portland OR

Posts: 79
Thanks: 0

I Ride:
so what about water wetter, same thing? one of my favorite trails in the gifford pinchote boils my bike every time(about a mile sraight up with LOTS of switch-backs). i hadn't ever even thoght of it going in that direction.its a great point though.

i figured it to be better heat transfer? would you warn against using W.W.?
tinbanger is offline  
October 7th, 2006, 04:46 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Joined: May 2004
From: Ashburnham MA. USA

Posts: 167
Thanks: 0

I Ride:
This is my second season running engine ice .No boil overs . Seems to work well , however I have not taken any temp. readings .
Any comments + or - on the use of engine ice ?

Regards , Ryan
Husabergler is offline  
October 7th, 2006, 05:27 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Johnf3's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
From: Texas

Posts: 935
Thanks: 20

I Ride: 2010 FX450
Originally Posted by Husabergler
This is my second season running engine ice .No boil overs . Seems to work well , however I have not taken any temp. readings .
Any comments + or - on the use of engine ice ?

Regards , Ryan
Engine Ice (propylene glycol) will exhibit some of the same properties as the Evans stuff (Although it will boil over, unlike Evans). Basically, it is not as efficient as water or even regular anti-freeze in removing heat from your engine.

So, even though the radiator and coolant temps are less, your actual engine temperatures are going to be hotter. Since I live where it does freeze, I run 30% regular antifreeze, 70% water, and a few ounces of Water Wetter, which is one of the additives Dale refers to in his above post.

The only positive to Engine Ice is that it is slightly more resistant to boil over than regular antifreeze. The drawback is that your already hot running motor is operating at even higher temperatures. It's an unacceptable compromise for me, so I don't use it.
Johnf3 is offline  
October 7th, 2006, 06:35 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Joined: Dec 2004
From: Bend, Oregon

Posts: 453
Thanks: 0

I Ride:
I read an interesting article in one of our HVAC trade magazines the other day that applies here. The article refers to the use of propylene Glycol, in building heating/cooling systems. The article was saying that a glycol system will reduce the heat transfer capability of water by 20-25%, that is a lot! For the heating guy that means I adjust the size of my equipment, for the rest of us, it means bigger radiators. Personally, I run 50/50 water/glycol without a problem, my 470 radiator was designed to handle up to a 650cc engine, so I have 25% of capacity to give, the guys who are running 650s do not. IMHO, if I was running a 650, water with water wetter would be the way to go.
BendBerg is offline  
October 7th, 2006, 09:20 AM   #7
Moderator
 
Joined: Oct 2002
From: Sunland, CA

Posts: 3,117
Thanks: 18

I Ride:
Thanks for all the great posts,

I have to admit that I have been vascillating on whether or not I'm going to remove the Evans from my system and utilize the brand new bottle of Engine Ice that's been sitting on my garage shelf for the last year.

I have run enging ice in the past, and in my observations it boils over sooner than just regular ol ethylene glycol. Which, by the way makes sense given that propylene glycol reduces heat transfer of water by 20-25%. That would mean, in a given situation a water propylene glycol mix would boil sooner as the actual coolant temp would rise above the boil over pressure restrained point more readily due to it's reduced heat transfer charachteristics.


However, there are certain charachteristics of the NPG-R coolant that I would like to point out and get all of your opinions on.

The main claim here is that there are hot spots in the motor, especially in the cylinder head area, where, as claimed by Evans, a regular coolant is actually film boiling b/c of the high temps in these area's. This means that the water in a regular coolant is turning into a gaseous state, and then condenses as it cools. And, given that the regular coolant is film boiling, it cannot extract the heat because of this vapor barrier, and thus, the temps in these area's will continue to rise and the area of film boiling will continue to increase in size, which increases the area's temps further (to a point of course). Also, as the coolant vapor leaves the area of film boiling, it is in the form of bubbles, which also means that any other area's that the coolant is trying to pull heat out of before reaching the radiator and condensing, will thusly be diminished b/c of said bubbles.

So, Evans claim is that their coolant (which boils at 400 degrees) is far more resilient to film boiling in the cylinder head area. Which if memory serves, can reach temps of 450 degree's. Thus, their coolant stays in contact with the metal surfaces of the motor and is able to extract more heat.

I called Evans the other day and posed the following question to the Tech: When I was riding up in Washington this summer with a friend of mine, who for all intents and purposes was riding the identical bike as mine with the exception that his bike had the stock coolant, I noticed the following upon returning from a long ride. After our bikes had been sitting for about 20 minutes or so, I went over and put my hand on his bikes radiator and it was still hot to the touch. I then went over to my bike and put my hand on my bikes radiator and it was noticably hotter. I realize that this was somewhat subjective as I did not have a spot radiometer to check actual surface temps, it was noticable.

The Tech's response was as follows: Your radiator felt hotter b/c the as with the other bike, the coolant was thermo syphoning, however, b/c Evans coolant pulls more heat out
than water, your radiator felt hotter because it was pulling more heat out of your motor.

Question for Dale: Your post states that when you switched over to Evans that your engine temps went up, and the coolant temps went down. Do you happen to recall what the temps actually were??

Here are a couple of pages for you to peruse:

http://www.eas.asu.edu/~holbert/eee460/ ... erties.pdf

http://www.evanscooling.com/main1.htm

Let me know what you think.
DaleEO is offline  
October 7th, 2006, 12:57 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
LINEAWEAVER's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2001
From: El Sobrante, Ca. 94803

Posts: 3,249
Thanks: 1

I Ride:
However, there are certain charachteristics of the NPG-R coolant that I would like to point out and get all of your opinions on.

The main claim here is that there are hot spots in the motor, especially in the cylinder head area, where, as claimed by Evans, a regular coolant is actually film boiling b/c of the high temps in these area's. This means that the water in a regular coolant is turning into a gaseous state, and then condenses as it cools. And, given that the regular coolant is film boiling, it cannot extract the heat because of this vapor barrier, and thus, the temps in these area's will continue to rise and the area of film boiling will continue to increase in size, which increases the area's temps further (to a point of course). Also, as the coolant vapor leaves the area of film boiling, it is in the form of bubbles, which also means that any other area's that the coolant is trying to pull heat out of before reaching the radiator and condensing, will thusly be diminished b/c of said bubbles.

True as can be! My prefered alternative is water wetter using a 28 PSI radiator cap.

Note:
Wetting additives reduce the surface tension of water consequently improving solid to liquid heat transfer. Often one will note an increase in actual coolant temperaure when using such an additive.



So, Evans claim is that their coolant (which boils at 400 degrees) is far more resilient to film boiling in the cylinder head area. Which if memory serves, can reach temps of 450 degree's. Thus, their coolant stays in contact with the metal surfaces of the motor and is able to extract more heat.

Again correct if indeed said engine is operating near the danger zone regarding "hot spots". (ie poor cooling system design, etc.)

I called Evans the other day and posed the following question to the Tech: When I was riding up in Washington this summer with a friend of mine, who for all intents and purposes was riding the identical bike as mine with the exception that his bike had the stock coolant, I noticed the following upon returning from a long ride. After our bikes had been sitting for about 20 minutes or so, I went over and put my hand on his bikes radiator and it was still hot to the touch. I then went over to my bike and put my hand on my bikes radiator and it was noticably hotter. I realize that this was somewhat subjective as I did not have a spot radiometer to check actual surface temps, it was noticable.

The Tech's response was as follows: Your radiator felt hotter b/c the as with the other bike, the coolant was thermo syphoning, however, b/c Evans coolant pulls more heat out
than water, your radiator felt hotter because it was pulling more heat out of your motor.

Nonsense!

Question for Dale: Your post states that when you switched over to Evans that your engine temps went up, and the coolant temps went down. Do you happen to recall what the temps actually were??

Of Course I do.
Critical coolant temperature regarding the ECU taking over was 254 degrees farenheit.
Average cylinder-head temperature @ said coolant termperature was that of 280 degrees fareneheit.

The Evans would buy us another 10 degrees farenheit regarding coolant temperature@ the expense of near 300 degree cylinder-head temperatures.

Our R1:
AMA rules dictate a stock radiator must be maintained. The race engine was built to Spanish championship specifications which allow for a larger radiator. The Spanish championship spec engine and small radiator did not get along very well. Not to mention ambient temperature to be in the triple digits most of the time. Neither Kenny nor myself took such into consideration. By the time we figured it out, it was too late.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Dale
LINEAWEAVER is offline  
October 7th, 2006, 01:33 PM   #9
Moderator
 
Joined: Oct 2002
From: Sunland, CA

Posts: 3,117
Thanks: 18

I Ride:
Thanks Dale!!

Finally!! some real numbers to think about.

Sorry to hear about the spanish spec/raditor size thing. As you said, at least you were able to keep running with the Evans.

The distilled water/water wetter definitely sounds good. But, I will need to run something like DEX cool or someother type anti "FREEZE". As it is definitely coming into the the time of year where it gets a bit chilly in the desert. In fact, when I was up at Kennedy Meadows a couple fo weeks ago it was 20 in the morning when I got up.

Thanks again for the numbers,
DaleEO is offline  
October 7th, 2006, 04:08 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
nsman's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
From: nova scotia

Posts: 1,340
Thanks: 14

I Ride:
I noticed Pascal Picotes Yamaha R-1 sported a additional bottom section radiator,shaped like a "V", at the Parts Canada Superbike series at AMP. Guess we know why!
nsman is offline  
Reply

  Husaberg Forum > Mechanical and Technical > Cooling Systems

Tags
cooling



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
cooling fan kit? lariseos Cooling Systems 16 January 9th, 2012 05:01 PM
More oil and cooling FE650 Hoosaberg Mechanical 2 December 3rd, 2011 01:58 PM
Oil in cooling system piggd Cooling Systems 4 October 2nd, 2007 08:10 PM
Cooling Fan Stiff_Bubba Mechanical 5 November 8th, 2006 06:08 PM
oil cooling spiney Mechanical 12 November 29th, 2005 05:37 PM


Facebook Twitter Google+ RSS Feed